Dissector
International Debutant
Yes because we all know about all those brilliant hundreds that Merchant scored on seaming tracks against top-class pace attacks in Indian domestic cricket.
-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
***Official*** India in Sri Lanka
- Thread starter Arjun
- Start date
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Yea but the thing about Merchant unfortunately is that we are rating him on what we percieved if it wasn't for the war he could have done based on FC record, what we read of him & what people said of him.
But unfortunately even if potentially he would be more of a solid candidate than Sehwag the fact that Sehwag regardless of his inconsistencies & misdemeanors in this flat track-era, Sehwag has made these big runs theirfore it should cancel out what we presume Merchant could have done thus placing Sehwag ahead IMO.
ret
International Debutant
some of these guys even rate a dud like Jaffar > Sehwag 
i remember that some of them were all rooting for Jaffar on the Australian trip and then wanted to give him more chances against RSA despite him showing no ability to last for 10 overs in any conditions .... why? may be because he played with a straight bat
i remember that some of them were all rooting for Jaffar on the Australian trip and then wanted to give him more chances against RSA despite him showing no ability to last for 10 overs in any conditions .... why? may be because he played with a straight bat
unccricket
School Boy/Girl Captain
harbhajan turns into a completely different bowler after he takes a wicket. you would figure someone with the arrogance/obnoxiousness of harbhajan wouldn't have confidence issues with his own bowling...
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
What do you do with this guy.
- He is averaging 53 plus in Test matches. That is better than any other Indian opener ever (of course it may come down but he has scored 500 runs so it is not for a short career)
- He has the highest AND the second highest ever Test score in Test matches by any Indian batsman.
- He scores a test hundred every 4.1 Tests. Only Gavaskar (3.6) and Tendulkar (3.7) get Test hundreds more often than him amongst all Indians (minimum 20 Tests).
- He has a better conversion rate (50%) from fifties to centuries than any other Indian in history except Azhar who has 51.1%
- He has scored his 4th Test double hundred in his 59th Test. Only three Indians have done this before
- Look at the size of his hundreds. Once he missed his double hundred , he realised he could get real big ones and he hasn't stopped . here are his Test centuries since then (he had four Test centuries before that)
- 195, 309, 155, 164,173, 201, 254, 180, 151, 319, 201*. That is an astounding run. I do not think there will be a comparable run of 11 test hundreds each above 150 in the history of the game. I haven't checked but it seems highly unlikely. Here is a guy, who once he gets going just wont stop.
- He has a strike rate of 77.2 in Test matches ! I havent checked again but I cant imagine another batsman who averages in the fifties (over a longish period) and strikes at such a phenomenal rate. Yes we have an image of what a Test opener should do but this guy will win matches for you.
To understand the significance of that strike rate you have to know that the magnificent Sri Lankan opener, Jayasuriya averages just 40.07 per innings and had a strike rate of 65.1 !! Its unbelievable. Jayasuriya had 14 hundreds in his 110 Tests, Sehwag already has 15 in about half as many!
One can go on and on.
To talk of the times he gets out for low scores is to be silly. Of course he does. It is going to happen. But he makes up. More than makes up.
The longest dry spell (no Test hundreds) he has EVER had in his career is SIX Test matches ! Thats it six Test and just once. that spell started after an innings of 254 and was ended with an innings of 180 !
Dravid has had, in his illustrious career, dry spells (without Test hundreds of
Holy cowdung !!
So what bothers us about Sehwag that he does not have enough 30's and 40's between his hundreds or that his 100's come too quickly for India's good ??
If anyone is interested I will give you Tendulkar's or any other Indian cricketer's dry runs to 'stand up' to Sehwag.
Whats the issue.
Since he made his debut in November 2001, in 59 Tests (counting the current one, he has scored just over 5000 runs with 15 hundreds including four doubles and three triples at an average above 53.
Only Dravid has scored more runs and scored more centuries (6068 runs and 15 centuries) but Rahul has also played 17 more Test matches than Sehwag in that period.
Of course he has scored more scores above 150, more scores above 200 and is the only one to score triple hundreds in this time.
Yet we want to measure him not by his big innings and his overall performance but by his small innings and his few failures? Ridiculous.
The fact of the matter is that, at least in Test matches, Sehwag has NEVER ever struck a bad patch enough for him to be dropped from the Test side. His bad patches were only in one dayers and that was used to drop him from the Test side. If he had played all the Tests, we would have been looking at over 7000 Test runs at present and some 20 odd Test centuries.
- He is averaging 53 plus in Test matches. That is better than any other Indian opener ever (of course it may come down but he has scored 500 runs so it is not for a short career)
- He has the highest AND the second highest ever Test score in Test matches by any Indian batsman.
- He scores a test hundred every 4.1 Tests. Only Gavaskar (3.6) and Tendulkar (3.7) get Test hundreds more often than him amongst all Indians (minimum 20 Tests).
- He has a better conversion rate (50%) from fifties to centuries than any other Indian in history except Azhar who has 51.1%
- He has scored his 4th Test double hundred in his 59th Test. Only three Indians have done this before
- Dravid in his 77th,
- Gavaskar in his 99th and
- Tendulkar in his 119th !!
- Of course he is the only one to have a triple in those and not just one.- Gavaskar in his 99th and
- Tendulkar in his 119th !!
- Look at the size of his hundreds. Once he missed his double hundred , he realised he could get real big ones and he hasn't stopped . here are his Test centuries since then (he had four Test centuries before that)
- 195, 309, 155, 164,173, 201, 254, 180, 151, 319, 201*. That is an astounding run. I do not think there will be a comparable run of 11 test hundreds each above 150 in the history of the game. I haven't checked but it seems highly unlikely. Here is a guy, who once he gets going just wont stop.
- He has a strike rate of 77.2 in Test matches ! I havent checked again but I cant imagine another batsman who averages in the fifties (over a longish period) and strikes at such a phenomenal rate. Yes we have an image of what a Test opener should do but this guy will win matches for you.
To understand the significance of that strike rate you have to know that the magnificent Sri Lankan opener, Jayasuriya averages just 40.07 per innings and had a strike rate of 65.1 !! Its unbelievable. Jayasuriya had 14 hundreds in his 110 Tests, Sehwag already has 15 in about half as many!
One can go on and on.
To talk of the times he gets out for low scores is to be silly. Of course he does. It is going to happen. But he makes up. More than makes up.
The longest dry spell (no Test hundreds) he has EVER had in his career is SIX Test matches ! Thats it six Test and just once. that spell started after an innings of 254 and was ended with an innings of 180 !
Dravid has had, in his illustrious career, dry spells (without Test hundreds of
- 8 Tests
- 13 Tests
- 8 Tests
- 13 Tests
- 6 Tests
- 7 Tests
- 6 Tests
- 10 Tests
Holy cowdung !!
So what bothers us about Sehwag that he does not have enough 30's and 40's between his hundreds or that his 100's come too quickly for India's good ??
If anyone is interested I will give you Tendulkar's or any other Indian cricketer's dry runs to 'stand up' to Sehwag.
Whats the issue.
Since he made his debut in November 2001, in 59 Tests (counting the current one, he has scored just over 5000 runs with 15 hundreds including four doubles and three triples at an average above 53.
Only Dravid has scored more runs and scored more centuries (6068 runs and 15 centuries) but Rahul has also played 17 more Test matches than Sehwag in that period.
Of course he has scored more scores above 150, more scores above 200 and is the only one to score triple hundreds in this time.
Yet we want to measure him not by his big innings and his overall performance but by his small innings and his few failures? Ridiculous.
The fact of the matter is that, at least in Test matches, Sehwag has NEVER ever struck a bad patch enough for him to be dropped from the Test side. His bad patches were only in one dayers and that was used to drop him from the Test side. If he had played all the Tests, we would have been looking at over 7000 Test runs at present and some 20 odd Test centuries.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I was one of them I must admit and I am so glad he has struck.
I still worry that he needs a wicket where fastish, less flighted stuff will work (as is working here) with the wicket showing clear signs of crumbling even on day two. The moment he gets a well bound wicket he struggles because he refuses to flight.
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
SJS,
Those statistics paint him in a more favorable light than he deserves. The vast majority of his huge runs have come on absolute featherbeds where multiple people have tonned up big. When the pitch starts doing something (e.g, in the second innings), he can't handle it. I've no problem with him being in the Indian side, and he is absolutely an important player to the lineup, but he is not all time material.
unccricket
School Boy/Girl Captain
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
I am no Harbhajan fan...Neither did I say that he should never have been dropped from the Indian test and/or ODI side (I still believe that there was a time when he should have been dropped, but wasn't)...But all I said was that 'this' is not the right time to drop him when you and some others wanted him to be dropped before the 2nd test....My logic was that he's by far the most successful Indian test bowler in the last few matches...Indian bowling, in the last few tests, has been worse than crap...Kumble is struggling to take even a wicket; Zaheer and Ishant's performances have been very very poor in the last 8 tests or so (Though Ishant is new and inexperienced, but others aren't)...Indian bowlers, on an average, take a wicket for almost 45 runs (as far as I remember) in the last 7-8 tests...In such a crap line-up, if someone is performing even decently, he can, by no means, be dropped....regardless of any other reason...
Last edited:
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Thats too long my friend. I did not say a word to refute what you said
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
No, if he failed that often he wouldn't be averaging 50+ while having an outrageous strike-rate ...remembering as well that he is an opener! Not a Gilchrist that comes late in the innings where bowlers may be tired. may have been hammered already, may be facing an older ball, etc... but doing this right at the start of an innings.
Last edited:
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
That's also true. But I think having an opener who has absolutely trounced the bowlers at the beginning of the innings, and at such a clip, would have helped the rest out considerably.
With regards to Merchant and varying conditions, do you remember this stat: Of his 44 100s 11 of them were 200+ scores all in the same stadium.
Don't wish to start all that again, but point is that all openers have had easy conditions and it's just as easy to criticise Sehwag as it is Gavaskar. Be fair. He was awesome against us in Australia and has done even better here.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I am amazed that you should say so on the day when he has scored 201 out of a score of just over 300 and just one other batsman managed to reach fifty !!
This is not the first time.
In Dec 2003, Sehwag scored 195 at Melbourne. He got out at 311 for 4. The team collapsed for 366 all out. No one even managed to score a fifty !!
In October 2004, against Australia at home he scored 155 out of 233 before he got out but till that time India had lost six wickets. All his senior partners in the top six put together totaled 61 !! Dravid was top scorer amongst the top order (other than Sehwag with 26 as Shane Warne ran through the side barring Sehwag.. The tail wagged and India reached 376. But it was Sehwag's knock that helped India draw the match.
At Adelaide in January this year (memories are really short), in India's second innings, he stood alone amongst ruins scoring 151 as the others collapsed around him. Dhoni was next highest scorer with 20 !!
And today he became only the second Indian batsman after Gavaskar to carry his bat through an innings but even Gavaskar never managed to do this, score 200 in a team score of 329.
Everyone scores their big hundreds in big team scores with big contributions by others too,
In this Indian team there have been ten other double centuries. Here are the circumstances in which they were scored
Dravid
- 200* out of 458 for 4
- 217 out of 508
- 222 out of 500 for 5
- 233 out of 523
- 270 out of 600
Tendulkar
- 217 out of 583 for 7
- 201 out of 609 for 6
- 241 out of 705 for 7
- 248 out of 526
Laxman
- 281 out of 657 for 7
In almost all of them one or more of their colleagues also got a hundred.
What would you call the wickets on which such massive team scores were made feather beds or mine fields.
Its easy to make up your mind about something and then only see in statistics what you already believe is true.
Yes Sehwag will murder an attack on a batsman's wicket but he will murder them also when his colleagues are struggling. It is for the public to think whether they are struggling because the wicket turns into a feather bed for Sehwag and a minefield for them or because he is in a different league than them or something else. Whatever it is, it doesn't show him in poor light by any stretch of imagination.
Last edited:
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
He has had several of those, I will not deny it, nor am I ignoring it. In fact, I've probably watched (live) every one of his centuries, and while some have been good, more than half have been on pitches that offer no chance of a result. If he was merely adequate in the second innings, I might think of him highly, but just watching him when things are happening tells you all you need to know in most cases. Sometimes statistics can deceive, but his average of 27.75 in the second innings tells you everything. And its not just the second innings, as he makes up for it by having a great first innings average, but its when pitch starts doing things.
Except for a couple notable exceptions, he is not the person I will rely on if I have to score runs on a dodgy pitch or against great bowling. And yes, I am fully admitting that yesterday was fantastic, and I said in the main thread that this was the best knock I have ever seen from him.
It is possible to appreciate his knock and give him his accolades without vastly overrating him (as putting him in the company of Gavaskar or Merchant is doing, in my opinion).
Except for a couple notable exceptions, he is not the person I will rely on if I have to score runs on a dodgy pitch or against great bowling. And yes, I am fully admitting that yesterday was fantastic, and I said in the main thread that this was the best knock I have ever seen from him.
It is possible to appreciate his knock and give him his accolades without vastly overrating him (as putting him in the company of Gavaskar or Merchant is doing, in my opinion).
Dissector
International Debutant
This is simply not true. He has hit 9 hundreds in drawn test matches and here is a list. Of the nine I would count 3 where there was no chance of a result. So that's just 3 out of his 15 centuries. The other six hundreds either helped save the game or gave India a reasonable chance to win.
As for his second innings record, I agree that it is a black mark against him. But Steve Waugh has a poor second innings record too with an average of 32 (26 in the fourth innings). That doesn't mean that he didn't contribute hugely to the team with his first innings knocks. It's the same with Sehwag.
The bottom line is that aside from Gavaskar, no Indian opener has contributed as much as Sehwag to the Indian test team. That is why he belongs to the all-time Indian test side IMO.