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***Official*** England in India

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
silentstriker said:
On the field, perhaps Anil Kumble, Sunny Gavaskar and Kapil Dev has done as much. But for Indian Cricket overall, no one comes close.
Just what has Sachin Tendulkar done for Indian Cricket off the field which Anil Kumble, Sunny Gavaskar and Kapil Dev didn't do ?

I realize that you want Sachin to be dropped, but that will never happen. So get over it, and find a new cause.
How do you know it will never happen ? If he keeps failing like this, it will happen and you will see an Indian middle order without Tendulkar very soon (unless he gets into better form).
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
silentstriker said:
Unrivaled Popularity. Cricket = SRT.
So what has Sachin done off the field to be popular ? Has he been doing Stand up Comedy which some of us are not aware of.

I grew up watching Kapil and I dont think Kapil was any less popular than SRT has been. I asked my grandpa once about his favorite player and he mentioned Lala Amarnath. So that is your personal opinion and not a fact.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Sanz said:
Jono, If you cant post without accusing me of having a bias against an individual then please dont quote my post in the future. I have argued for Sachin and defended him in this forum more than you have and I have bashed his batting more than anyone. (You can check the fourm archives to confirm that)

It is you and your ilk who seem to have a biased agenda who want Sachin Tendulkar in the team despite the fact that his batting has been miserable for close to two years now.



No that is not my contention, my contention is that at least his place should be questioned and should not be an automatic selection. And as for getting over it, why cant you hawks get over it and let others have an opinion as well, why must you have to accuse people of having a bias when you yourself are biased.




First of all, just because majority of people think that SRT is above GOD doesn't mean I should tow the same line of thnking. I have my own opinion and I believe that Kumble has won India more test matches than Sachin has and I can prove it too. I can also prove that Wadekar gave us our first overseas win and that Kapil gave us our first and only world cup, I can also prove that Ganguly was our most successful captain and Bedi was our highest wicket taker for some time.
Bias and agenda are something different, at least in my mind.

Your agenda is that right now Sachin should not be an automatic selection. Fair enough, but at the moment (read Gooch's article, he even stated as such) he is. And this agenda is flowing over into you frankly making stupid statements. Wadekar a better cricketer than Tendulkar? I mean come on! No one is trying to deny you of an opinion, but if you make outlandish comments as if Sachin isn't even in the best 5 Indian cricketers of all time, I will respond, because its just plain false.

Bedi was our highest wicket taker for some time? Sachin is, and has been our highest run for what seems like forever. And don't give me this 'above God' crap. I'm not talking about the everyday Joe you find on the street who praises Sachin and screams "SACHIN SACHIN" when Dravid and Ganguly are out there belting a 200+ run partnership during the 99 WC. I'm talking about experts, and not one or two, the whole cricketing world. If you think you know more then them, fine, but your agenda IMO is that you are so frustrated by the constant attention Tendulkar gets in the media, whereby excuses are made or he's always been talked about whilst other top performers are being ignored, is getting in the way of your logical argument. I can see how you can make a claim that Kumble has been of more importance to Indian cricket than Sachin (wouldn't make it right mind you) and Kapil and Sunil are obvious, but the suggestion that Ganguly, Bedi etc. will go down in history as the higher ranked Indian cricketer is ridiculous. That's like claiming Mark Taylor will go down in Australian cricket history as the better cricketer because of his fantastic record as captain, when Ponting, whilst far from the better captain, has done so much with the bat, much more than Taylor ever did.

I never tried to say you couldn't have an opinion, but if you're going to flaunt claims like that on a message board, you should expect a reply.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Jono said:
Your agenda is that right now Sachin should not be an automatic selection. Fair enough, but at the moment (read Gooch's article, he even stated as such) he is. And this agenda is flowing over into you frankly making stupid statements. Wadekar a better cricketer than Tendulkar? I mean come on! No one is trying to deny you of an opinion, but if you make outlandish comments as if Sachin isn't even in the best 5 Indian cricketers of all time, I will respond, because its just plain false.
That's not an agenda, it is my opinion, just like you have one on Sachin. And where did I say that Wadekar was a better cricketer ?? Of course not, but Wadekar was a better leader than Tendulkar, So was Ganguly. And Cricket (or for that matter any sport) isn't about you individual performance only, it is also about leadership qualities, backing your players, something Ganguly showed much more than Tendulkar. Wadekar took his team to WI and England and won two overseries series in a year , something we have not been able to do again despite having powerhouse of talent and that's why Wadekar remains one of the true legends of Indian Cricket. I never said he is higher than Sachin (something you have been claiming), I said he has done as much as Sachin has, Look at Wadekar's record when he became coach, Indian team was almost unbeaten at home, Kumble became the major force he is today under Wadekar, India won Hero Cup under him, one of the best series I have watched and one of the rarest wins in the finals. IMO Wadekar as Player, captain, Coach, Selector has certainly done a lot and IMO as much as Sachin. You may not agree with it but that's your opinion and you sure can have it, but you cant call my opinion about Wadekar as RUBBISH.

I can surely make a case for Ganguly doing as much for Indian cricket but then I wil be accused of favoring Ganguly so I will leave that for some other time.

Bedi was our highest wicket taker for some time? Sachin is, and has been our highest run for what seems like forever.
Forever, What nonsense are you talking about ?? Just when did Sachin Pass Sunny Gavaskar's 10122 runs ?? Let me guess against Pakistan in Banglore in 2005, which is roughly about a year. That may be 'forever' for a blinded fan like you, to me it is still about a year and the way Rahul Dravid is playing there is a good chance that it will not last long. Just for record Bedi held the 'Wighest wicket taker for India' record longer than Sachin has 'Highest runmaker for India'.

I'm talking about experts, and not one or two, the whole cricketing world. If you think you know more then them,
And what do these experts say about Tendulkar's current form ? I never claimed that I know more than any expert, infact I have always maintained that my cricket knowledge and understanding is very limited.

but your agenda IMO is that you are so frustrated by the constant attention Tendulkar gets in the media, whereby excuses are made or he's always been talked about whilst other top performers are being ignored, is getting in the way of your logical argument.
That is you assumption and I dont see the need to give any clarification, you are free to assume anything you want as long as you dont accuse me of having an agenda against any individual.

the suggestion that Ganguly, Bedi etc. will go down in history as the higher ranked Indian cricketer is ridiculous..
Dont start putting words into my mouth. I never said Ganguly, Bedi etc are higher than Sachin, I said they have done AS MUCH.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Jono said:
Conversely Kumble, by no means an allrounder and is chosen for his bowling abilities alone, has done a lot more with the bat (and obviously the ball too).
To be honest I'd have backed Kumble to outscore either of those before the tour - the sheer fact Blackwell is on the tour shows how bad our spin reserves are.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Pratyush said:
Because it shows people can perform after a low.
Yes, a much shorter low period - which is very much mitigated by bowling on some of the flattest pitches in Cricketing history.

But it allowed you to sidestep the question again by ignoring it...
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Pratyush said:
Umm don't make this me vs the whole world because it clearly isn't that way. :mellow: 8-)
No, because you clearly don't disagree with anyone else who questions SRT?

Then when they ask questions you don't like, you don't completely misinterpret them to avoid the issue...
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
marc71178 said:
But it allowed you to sidestep the question again by ignoring it...
Are we discussing the larger points or going into details knowing they aren't perfect and interested in twisting around words.

I mentioned it is not Tendulkar's fault that he has played from such a young age and did not miss much for so long in his career.

Cheers.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
marc71178 said:
No, because you clearly don't disagree with anyone else who questions SRT?

Then when they ask questions you don't like, you don't completely misinterpret them to avoid the issue...
I am questioning facts? No. Can I have beliefs? Yes. I question points and do not have reason to change specific beliefs when a Tendulkar dropping call is asked for.

I do not ask you to change your belief. Why do you expect me to change mine.

Only future can be the judge. If I have specific beliefs you would be foolish to expect me to change them presenting illogical arguments.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Again, ignoring any questions by twisting things.

When asked anyone who'd had such a long period without any real success and not been dropped, you bring up Kapil Dev.

Then asked where his such long period was you changed the subject again. Then when the fact of you chainging the subject so often is brought up, you change the subject!
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
marc71178 said:
So again sidestepping a question you don't like.

Funny that.
I am not ignoring your question. I have said regarding Tendulkar playing from a young age and more matches being played than ever before.


Um. You are weird. Go back and read if you want and you will notice you were raising a point just for the sake of it. Do you really expect people to be so foolish?
 
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Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
marc71178 said:
Again, ignoring any questions by twisting things.

When asked anyone who'd had such a long period without any real success and not been dropped, you bring up Kapil Dev.

Then asked where his such long period was you changed the subject again. Then when the fact of you chainging the subject so often is brought up, you change the subject!
I am not ignoring your question. I have said regarding Tendulkar playing from a young age and more matches being played than ever before.

You have to go back to why you asked the question. What was the point being discussed earlier.
 
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viktor

State Vice-Captain
silentstriker said:
On the field, perhaps Anil Kumble, Sunny Gavaskar and Kapil Dev has done as much. But for Indian Cricket overall, no one comes close.

I realize that you want Sachin to be dropped, but that will never happen. So get over it, and find a new cause.
I do think that the above named guys have done atleast as well as Sachin on the field but I don't quite understand what you mean by "overall"?
Sunny G was the guy who fought for higher renumeration for players; Kapil inspired a whole generation to take up fast (??) bowling. How can you claim that Sachin's contribution to Indian Cricket has been greater than these people??
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Going back to it. When I made the following statement :

Pratyush said:
When a comparison is made do we take 10 matches, 15 matches or 20 matches, 1, 1.5 or 2 years?
You retorted:

Marc Robbins said:
How many players have a run that long without being dropped then?
What is the connection between the two? Just because some one hasn't had a longer run than Tendulkar in the past, he should be dropped? So is there a rule that if a player plays X no of matches without being dropped he should be dropped?

Answer that else I don't the relevance of your question.
 
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viktor

State Vice-Captain
silentstriker said:
Unrivaled Popularity. Cricket = SRT.
Not true. Are you saying that we wouldn't have been following cricket if Sachin hadn't been there?? Its a cliche, but a true one; no player is greater than the game. We would have found someone else to worship. Jaggu D. et. al. would have ensured that.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Heck Srikanth had to lose his captaincy(despite doing well ) and eventually his place in the team because he fought for better remuneration for players. Some Mr. RajSingh Dungerpur then decided to end Cheeka's career by famously asking 'Miyan Captain Banoge ?'.

Even the current player's contracts - it is Anil Kumble (along with Rahul Dravid) who was actively involved with the board in drafting the contract format for players. It was Rahul Dravid who came up with the idea of hiring foreign coaches, and he along with Srinath, Kumble and Sourav lobbied for it in 2000.
 
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Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Jono said:
The thing that amazes me about this Tendulkar topic, is the fact that Pratyush and Marc have seriously been debating/arguing about this topic for around the past 6-8 months now, and nothing has changed. I think you guys should just agree to disagree :)
The problem is Jono that Marc can has his own beliefs. But if I make a statement (like I did) based on my beliefs, my beliefs are questioned. It is called being immature and not understanding people can feel differently.
 

C_C

International Captain
When asked anyone who'd had such a long period without any real success and not been dropped, you bring up Kapil Dev.
Lara had a 5 year slump where he scored in one mammoth series vs OZ and f-all otherwise. Barely averaged 40 that entire period and without that monster solitary series, he averages below 40.
 

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