***Official*** England in India

[marc71178]

Kapil Dev around the same in terms of years.

So when did Kapil have 2 years of consistent mediocrity?

 

[adharcric]

You are beginning to remind me of the resident Aunt Jemima, who hasnt been laid since her teens and who's sole job is to shoot a few snide remarks, make assinine observations, do a bit of 'backpatting for the friends and jibing at others without reading a toss' and scoot off to stir another pot.

... spot on, there

 

[Pratters]

So when did Kapil have 2 years of consistent mediocrity?

Umm so why do you forget about G.McGrath, Richard Hadlee (who came back strong after his injury), Azhar among batsmen and every one else. You are being very rigid and I cannot change it.

 

[Jono]

I was not comparing the protoganists but rather putting them by way of their importance to the respective teams.

- Dravid/Vaughan : Best batsmen in the two sides (due regards to Sachin) and captains

With all due respect, Vaughan is most certainly not England's best batsman. Really the only similarities these two have is 1) they are captains of their respective teams and 2) they both happen to bat number 3.

Edit: Sorry SJS, just saw Honest said a similar thing and you replied. That being said, I'd have Vaughan around 5th best in the English line-up Tresco, Pietersen (only recently, but consistently scoring), Strauss and Freddy have been better bats for the past 18 months IMO.

 

[SJS]

With all due respect, Vaughan is most certainly not England's best batsman. Really the only similarities these two have is 1) they are captains of their respective teams and 2) they both happen to bat number 3.

If you read my subsequent posts that would have been unnecessary.

Calling him second best or third best and then using Tendulkar, Sehwag or Yuvraj for comaprison still wouldnt change the point I was making, would it ?

And his being captain made the comparison with Dravid slightly better but take your pick

 

[Jono]

The thing that amazes me about this Tendulkar topic, is the fact that Pratyush and Marc have seriously been debating/arguing about this topic for around the past 6-8 months now, and nothing has changed. I think you guys should just agree to disagree

 

[Jono]

If you read my subsequent posts that would have been unnecessary.

Read my edit

 

[marc71178]

Umm so why do you forget about G.McGrath, Richard Hadlee (who came back strong after his injury), Azhar among batsmen and every one else. You are being very rigid and I cannot change it.

You what?

I asked you which cricketers had had such a long period underperforming and not been dropped, so you say Kapil.

When I ask you where Kapil's 2 year spell of mediocrity is, you come up with the above?

 

[marc71178]

The thing that amazes me about this Tendulkar topic, is the fact that Pratyush and Marc have seriously been debating/arguing about this topic for around the past 6-8 months now, and nothing has changed. I think you guys should just agree to disagree

December 2004 I believed his signature says.

However it's not just me with the viewpoint, but whichever person tries to debate it gets their words twisted and changed to ignore the crux of the point being made (as shown by the sudden jump from Kapil to McGrath et al)

 

[silentstriker]

I am not saying this because I am not absolutely delighted at the test win but because India should have been CLEAR favourites to win against this English side. Take away Rahul Dravid(Michael Vaughan of India), Anil Kumble(Giles), Sehwag (Trescothic) and one of the other main bowlers(Simon Jones) and then pit them against this England side.

Yea, aside from Ponting...Dravid is the 2nd best batsman in world cricket today. I don't think Vaughn is anywhere near that.


Off topic: WTF is up with Ponting? He is in INSANE form right now. English fans should be happy that he is going through this now, and not when the next ashes come around. The only player who I remember to have had such a form is probably SRT in the mid-nineties. You can say whatever you want about holding on to the past, or not picking someone on their performances ten years ago, but it still doesn't change the fact that he is SRT....and that pretty much is that.


Marc71178,

Here is the clearest way I can put it, and then I will bow out of this discussion:

Does SRT deserve a place in the Indian XI on his current form? No
Does SRT deserve a place in the Indian XI because he is SRT? Yes

I know that sounds weird, and it doesn't make cricketing sense. But calling him the Moses of Indian cricket wouldn't be an unfair comparison.

He is the only player in the history of Indian cricket who should get this treatment. I am not sure if you understand what he represents to Indian cricket, even if he is not scoring runs.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Yea, aside from Ponting...Dravid is the 2nd best batsman in world cricket today. I don't think Vaughn is anywhere near that.


Off topic: WTF is up with Ponting? He is in INSANE form right now. English fans should be happy that he is going through this now, and not when the next ashes come around. The only player who I remember to have had such a form is probably SRT in the mid-nineties.

Wasn't he in insane form before the last Ashes, too?

 

[Jono]

No, he hadn't scored a ton all through 2004, and he finally scored a 100 in the first test of 2005, the Sydney test against Pakistan. The next test series for Australia was the Ashes IIRC.

Ponting's other "insane form patch" was in 2003, where he averaged around 100 throughout the year and even scored consecutive double hundreds. One in Adelaide against India in the 2nd test, and then one in Melbourne in the 3rd test.

 

[Sanz]

You what?
I asked you which cricketers had had such a long period underperforming and not been dropped, so you say Kapil.

Actually Kapil was also dropped once in his career for playing poor shot, and it was against England, in 1984 for the Kolkata test.

 

[Jono]

Has anyone read Graham Gooch's article on Cricinfo? I never knew old Goochy could write so well, he made a lot of good points. I think the best point he made was about Virender Sehwag.

Patel's emergence points to an India where talents are sprouting in far-away fields. They are hungry and competitive, skilled and mature beyond their years. They have control and confidence and are more than just one-trick ponies. Suddenly, there is a scramble for places in the bowling department.

It would encourage the team management to do a ditto with their batting. Wasim Jaffer has made a statement of intent in the first two Tests and in laying off the likes of VVS Laxman and Sourav Ganguly, the message is loud and clear for the rest. A Sachin Tendulkar is still out of reach but a Virender Sehwag has caught the hint palpably. Informed ones must tell me if they have ever seen Sehwag apply himself in such a manner as he did on the last day in Mohali. He got one of his rare good scores in the second innings and what is more it could perhaps be his slowest fifty in Test cricket. All that talk of leave-him-alone and 'he knows only one way to bat' has been tossed out of the window. The sense of self-preservation can make the best of us do strange things

Interesting he also suggests that England should play the extra batsman, and drop the 5 bowler strategy that has been so successful for them in the past. He did make a good point though, because really what bowling did Blackwell and Plunkett do anyway? England have basically played 4 bowlers, and the number 8 slot has twice been filled with someone who has barely contributed anything, yet they are supposed to have some batting talent along with their bowling. Conversely Kumble, by no means an allrounder and is chosen for his bowling abilities alone, has done a lot more with the bat (and obviously the ball too).

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/indveng/content/current/story/240659.html

 

[Sanz]

Marc71178,

Here is the clearest way I can put it, and then I will bow out of this discussion:

Does SRT deserve a place in the Indian XI on his current form? No
Does SRT deserve a place in the Indian XI because he is SRT? Yes NO

I know that sounds weird, and it doesn't make cricketing sense. But calling him the Moses of Indian cricket wouldn't be an unfair comparison.

He is the only player in the history of Indian cricket who should get this treatment. I am not sure if you understand what he represents to Indian cricket, even if he is not scoring runs.

This is the biggest BS I have heard. Sunny Gavaskar, Kapildev, Anil Kumble, Bishen Bedi, Sourav Ganguly, Ajit Wadekar etc etc etc all have done as much for Indian Cricket as SRT has.

 

[Pratters]

You what?

I asked you which cricketers had had such a long period underperforming and not been dropped, so you say Kapil.

When I ask you where Kapil's 2 year spell of mediocrity is, you come up with the above?

Because it shows people can perform after a low.

 

[Jono]

This is the biggest BS I have heard. Sunny Gavaskar, Kapildev, Anil Kumble, Bishen Bedi, Sourav Ganguly, Ajit Wadekar etc etc etc all have done as much for Indian Cricket as SRT has.

Yeah umm no Sanz. That's such rubbish and you obviously have an agenda which is getting in the way of some logic.

Your contention is clear, Sachin should be dropped, please get over it now? But whether you like it or not, the majority of people in Indian cricket (and cricket as whole) see Tendulkar as without a doubt in the top 3-4 greatest Indian cricketers ever, and 50 years from now he's going to be mentioned a lot more than Ganguly, Bedi and Wadekar... and probably Kumble too.

Leave it, and move on.

 

[Pratters]

However it's not just me with the viewpoint, but whichever person tries to debate it gets their words twisted and changed to ignore the crux of the point being made (as shown by the sudden jump from Kapil to McGrath et al)

Umm don't make this me vs the whole world because it clearly isn't that way.

 

[silentstriker]

This is the biggest BS I have heard. Sunny Gavaskar, Kapildev, Anil Kumble, Bishen Bedi, Sourav Ganguly, Ajit Wadekar etc etc etc all have done as much for Indian Cricket as SRT has.

On the field, perhaps Anil Kumble, Sunny Gavaskar and Kapil Dev has done as much. But for Indian Cricket overall, no one comes close.

I realize that you want Sachin to be dropped, but that will never happen. So get over it, and find a new cause.

 

[Sanz]

Yeah umm no Sanz. That's such rubbish and you obviously have an agenda which is getting in the way of some logic.

Jono, If you cant post without accusing me of having a bias against an individual then please dont quote my post in the future. I have argued for Sachin and defended him in this forum more than you have and I have bashed his batting more than anyone. (You can check the fourm archives to confirm that)

It is you and your ilk who seem to have a biased agenda who want Sachin Tendulkar in the team despite the fact that his batting has been miserable for close to two years now.

Your contention is clear, Sachin should be dropped, please get over it now?

No that is not my contention, my contention is that at least his place should be questioned and should not be an automatic selection. And as for getting over it, why cant you hawks get over it and let others have an opinion as well, why must you have to accuse people of having a bias when you yourself are biased.

But whether you like it or not, the majority of people in Indian cricket (and cricket as whole) see Tendulkar as without a doubt in the top 3-4 greatest Indian cricketers ever, and 50 years from now he's going to be mentioned a lot more than Ganguly, Bedi and Wadekar... and probably Kumble too.

Leave it, and move on.

First of all, just because majority of people think that SRT is above GOD doesn't mean I should tow the same line of thnking. I have my own opinion and I believe that Kumble has won India more test matches than Sachin has and I can prove it too. I can also prove that Wadekar gave us our first overseas win and that Kapil gave us our first and only world cup, I can also prove that Ganguly was our most successful captain and Bedi was our highest wicket taker for some time.