I really rate his champions trophy effort for the record. Arguably the best ever performance in a major ODI tournament. But just not relevant here.
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Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan
- Thread starter Gob
- Start date
Cricket Bliss
School Boy/Girl Captain
Since it is about Test Cricket and many are mentioning it again and again i wont be going again with this ODI topic
Any day World Cup is higher than Champions Trophy, but single handedly winning a Champions Trophy alone throughout the tournament (not just finals, that too only event the country won) >> Top scoring the finals at the World Cup (since we are comparing the calibre of Kallis and Imran)
and not winning a champions trophy or world cup is never a testament to one’s calibre… Even if India hadn’t won the 2011 World still Tendulkar and Kohli would still have the same reputation they have now. It aint going to make much difference, since it is a collective team effort.
But when a player wins any tournament with all the non minnow countries “ALONE WITH HIS EFFORTS” that is a testament of his calibre.
How much do you see a person of the winning team of a tournament become player of the tournament, player of the match in the finals and semi finals, leading wicket taker and second leading run scorer!!!! i was just referring to that.
smash84
The Tiger King
Even if taking that CT into account, I also saw that champions trophy in 1998. It was like a T20 tournament. Win 3 matches on the trot and win the tournament, which is what SA did. It didn't even require a consistently long run that most world cups require (and also some of the later champions trophies???? Cbf looking up other champions trophy formats).
kyear2
International Coach
Ideally you're looking for a players who's at least great in two disciplines over the course of a career. As far as batting and bowling goes, that's never existed, Botham flirted with it for a while but it was short lived.
The only instance of players being ATG at multiple disciples over the course of a career has been batsmen and the catchers behind the stumps.
Hammond
Sobers
Chappell
Kallis
Ponting
Lara ?
Smith
Outside of that, it's a great and at best test standard if not below average.
But one gets praised and the other ignored, yet all equally important.
Cricket Bliss
School Boy/Girl Captain
It was not Kallis fault that the tournament was like that. He could only play what he is provided and did that gracefully….
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
That's the point. Sobers and Imran, based on their records, are test standards with ball and bat.Ideally you're looking for a players who's at least great in two disciplines over the course of a career. As far as batting and bowling goes, that's never existed, Botham flirted with it for a while but it was short lived.
The only instance of players being ATG at multiple disciples over the course of a career has been batsmen and the catchers behind the stumps.
Hammond
Sobers
Chappell
Kallis
Ponting
Lara ?
Smith
Outside of that, it's a great and at best test standard if not below average.
But one gets praised and the other ignored, yet all equally important.
Kallis is below average, a bit better than a part timer.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
The whole point of evaluating ARs is to see how well they did in a balancing both disciplines. Imran's batting skill and output improved when he became the premier bowler, and even after his bowling faded. Kallis' bowling output got worse as he became the premier bat. So the clear difference between them.
We arent going to judge Kallis by a portion of his career or how he hypothetically would have done. We judge him by his overall output as to what sort of bowler he was.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Between 83 and 85 when he was injured as a bowler he continued to play as a pure bat.
Cricket Bliss
School Boy/Girl Captain
One thing that must be noted is that South Africa had one of the best bowling attacks of their era.. Even greater than Pakisthan line up of the 70s and 80s
Donald , Pollock and Ntini
Steyn, Pollock and Ntini
Steyn (rank 1 for 6 years) , Morkel and Philander (at peak took 50 wickets in just 7 tests)
so the fourth seamer Kallis on many occasions was not given the extreme ‘NEW BALL’ .
Though of mediocre quality Kallis was a swing bowler rather than bowler who relied much on speed, bounce or seam
most of you mention that without these support his average would’ve reached late 30s. Well in Sub Continent, Australian and New Zealand conditions if he was tested like that his average would’ve dropped.
But Kallis getting more exposure with the new ball in the South African Greeny conditions would have definitely improved his wickets per match and by which would’ve boosted his average.
In English conditions Kallis averages 29.
Im not saying he would average mid 20s or something with the new ball in these conditions. But definitely he would average better than 29 and 30 in English and South African conditions respectively.
In England
Tests : 15
Wickets : 39
Wickets/ match : 2.6
In South Africa
Tests : 88
Wickets : 166
Wickets/ match : 1.88
In West Indies (Bowling against Lara, Chanderpaul, Gayle etc makes them non minnows atleast in batting, also considering his best bowling performance against them came in the 90s and early 2000s)
Tests : 12
Wickets : 27
Wickets/ match : 2.25
combined Kallis has
Tests : 115
Wickets : 232
wickets/ match : 2.01 >> 1.75 (292 off 166)
and these 115 tests account of 69% of the Tests played. He was very worse in other conditions except in Bangladesh and Zimbabwe that his wicket/ per match dropped much. Had Kallis more exposure to new ball like a third seamer (South Africa’s bowling quality would’ve reduced) he would have made around 2 wickets per match overall.
While mentioning Imran’s batting , you mention it always as 40 (1980s) rather than 37 which is his overall but when it comes to Kallis you reduce it to around 1.5 from 1.75 (wkts / per match)
@subshakerz degrades him with the ball such to 6th seamer or so. How many 6th seamers peaked in the top 20 rankings ever? leave no.6
Donald , Pollock and Ntini
Steyn, Pollock and Ntini
Steyn (rank 1 for 6 years) , Morkel and Philander (at peak took 50 wickets in just 7 tests)
so the fourth seamer Kallis on many occasions was not given the extreme ‘NEW BALL’ .
Though of mediocre quality Kallis was a swing bowler rather than bowler who relied much on speed, bounce or seam
most of you mention that without these support his average would’ve reached late 30s. Well in Sub Continent, Australian and New Zealand conditions if he was tested like that his average would’ve dropped.
But Kallis getting more exposure with the new ball in the South African Greeny conditions would have definitely improved his wickets per match and by which would’ve boosted his average.
In English conditions Kallis averages 29.
Im not saying he would average mid 20s or something with the new ball in these conditions. But definitely he would average better than 29 and 30 in English and South African conditions respectively.
In England
Tests : 15
Wickets : 39
Wickets/ match : 2.6
In South Africa
Tests : 88
Wickets : 166
Wickets/ match : 1.88
In West Indies (Bowling against Lara, Chanderpaul, Gayle etc makes them non minnows atleast in batting, also considering his best bowling performance against them came in the 90s and early 2000s)
Tests : 12
Wickets : 27
Wickets/ match : 2.25
combined Kallis has
Tests : 115
Wickets : 232
wickets/ match : 2.01 >> 1.75 (292 off 166)
and these 115 tests account of 69% of the Tests played. He was very worse in other conditions except in Bangladesh and Zimbabwe that his wicket/ per match dropped much. Had Kallis more exposure to new ball like a third seamer (South Africa’s bowling quality would’ve reduced) he would have made around 2 wickets per match overall.
While mentioning Imran’s batting , you mention it always as 40 (1980s) rather than 37 which is his overall but when it comes to Kallis you reduce it to around 1.5 from 1.75 (wkts / per match)
@subshakerz degrades him with the ball such to 6th seamer or so. How many 6th seamers peaked in the top 20 rankings ever? leave no.6
Cricket Bliss
School Boy/Girl Captain
But the Same below average peaked No. 6 in bowling >> based on pure bat who peaked No. 12
stop overrating Imran’s batting (small extent) and underrating Kallis bowling (large extent)
SillyCowCorner1
Moooo
Andre Nel; took the wicket of the Prince two times in one day
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
And? I have already said Kallis in his first 1/3rd was a test standard bowler. Doesn't mean we ignore after that.But the Same below average peaked No. 6 in bowling >> based on pure bat who peaked No. 12
stop overrating Imran’s batting (small extent) and underrating Kallis bowling (large extent)
Whereas Imran was an average to good test bat for around 2/3rds of his career.
Coronis
International Coach
You mean for that whole 2 matches, one of which he contributed absolutely nothing with the bat?
Coronis
International Coach
Is this an average to good test bat?
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Why did you pick his early career when he wasn't a proper test bat yet? He only became a proper test allrounder once he hit his first ton in 1980.Is this an average to good test bat?
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
stats.espncricinfo.com
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Averaged 56 in Australia with two fifties against Lillee, and also played in the 83 WC as a bat in that time.
Cricket Bliss
School Boy/Girl Captain
Imran might be the greatest bowler ever even in his bad years!!
Stop underrating Kallis, at his peak with the bat Kallis was definitely the best or second best to Ponting. He was even better than both Tendulkar and Lara in the 2000s
Apart from In England and Sri Lanka Kallis averages extremely well. He averages more than 50 in all the other countries except in Australia at late 40s. In fact Kallis averages 50+ in more countries than Tendulkar!
And in the difficult of the conditions of the sub continent he averages 58 in India and 83 in Pakisthan which testaments his batting skills as legendary. At peak his ratting of 935 is even higher than that of Tendulkar and Lara.
I don’t think Imran is overrated as a bowler but this thread is making him extremely overrated. Imran is unarguably outside the top 5 and arguably never in the top 10.
Barnes, Warne , Ambrose, Muralitharan, Lillee, Hadlee, Marshall, Grimmett, O’Rielly, Akram, McGrath, Steyn, Garner(not in order) are better than Imran (some unarguably and some arguably ) since i don’t know much about Loahman and the others of that era i don’t keep them above Imran. Imran might fit between 12-15.
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Coronis
International Coach
You literally said 2/3rd of his career, so I took the first 2/3rds of his career?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah and that 2/3rd you selected is a mix of him being test standard and not test standard. The point is to pick the period when he was consistently test standard.
I mean, is the idea that players have stages of their career really that hard to comprehend?
Imran's batting career had two main phases. Pre-1980 when he was nothing more than a useful bat, and post-1980 when his conversion began to improve notably and he was well more than test standard.
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Cricket Bliss
School Boy/Girl Captain
Doesn’t mean we have to ignore what Imran did before 1980. Just like you said about Kallis
In case of Kallis you take his entire career and for Imran his peak with the batting!
if comparing then take the entire career
Kallis till 2003 tour of England from his debut
Tests : 68
Wickets : 151
Wickets / match : 2.22
Average : 28.35
I guess bowling average of 28.35 is better than batting average of 40.
Even at the end of his career his stats or performance doesn’t signify him as just above part timers. He is comfortably a 4th seamer.