Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

[smash84]

None seem to mention that Kallis single handedly won the 1998 Knockout Trophy for South Africa.

This is literally one of the worst points to bring up in this discussion. No one is discussing ODIs here at all. Although if you have to bring up that silly discussion, Imran was the highest scorer in the WC final, and without his pivotal innings pakistan would have just crumbled (e.g. 1999 WC final). Kallis didn't even win a World Cup.

 

[subshakerz]

None seem to mention that Kallis single handedly won the 1998 Knockout Trophy for South Africa.
Being Player of the Match on both the semi final and the final. Taking 5 wickets in the final against West Indies which wisden rated as the 15th best bowling performance in ODI in 2002.
He was the leading wicket taker and the second leading run scorer in that tournament and was the player of the match. This being South Africa’s only Trophy makes Kallis’s all round contribution even sweeter. Becoming the leading wicket taker in your country’s only Trophy has significance.
Of course he performed well with the bat, well it’s not necessary for him to be muck with the bat just to prove his testament as a bowler alone like you say in Imran’s case (not form with the ball, performed well with the bat)

Kallis also had his match winning performance with the ball like the 2003 Headingly Test against England were his 6/54 provided South Africa the victory.
His performed well against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe (minnows) but that was just 12 Tests and 38 wickets.
Rest in 154 Tests he picked 254 wickets against not so minnows. People speak like he played 50 ofd Tests and took 150 odd wickets out of his 292 against them.
Kallis peak in bowling was around 2001-02 were in 22 Tests he had 66 wickets @ 26.77 . Well im not saying he had all time great peak but definitely it was good and he peaked at no.6 in the bowling rankings in Tests which is definitely great
No one here mentions these about Kallis, but simply states Kallis’s limitations… and will dig into every possible minute achievement which Imran made..

If Imran ranked no.12 at his best in batting rankings, Kallis ranked no. 6 at his best in bowling rankings which is definitely an achievement above Imran

All beside the point. How were they as a overall in these disciplines?

Imran could still scratch a place in most test sides. Nobody is picking Kallis at 1.5 wickets a test.

 

[subshakerz]

I have never used that standard for all rounders. I think that's ridiculous actually

By that standard if you are trying to make an at xi as an all rounder you should be able to make it in either and that's not remotely possible.
Imran during his bowling peak wouldn't make a decently strong batting team, I've seen references to Logie but Logie was a consistently better batsman than Imran and 37 is a below average test average. Sobers isn't making any strong team as a first string fast bowler, wrist spinner possibly but again, that can't be the criteria for an all rounder.
Make tangible contributions to the team in multiple disciplines which is what Kallis accomplished.

Imran averaged 40 with the bat during his bowling peak from 80 to 88. Why compare to Logie who was in the best team of all time? He made it in his own team on batting alone and would have made any other team aside from WI.

To be clear, by my definition, any player that is a regular in the top 7 batting positions and of 5 main bowlers used is an allrounder, including Kallis.

However, ATG allrounders like Sobers and Imran who can be selected in the team based on both disciplines are objectively better allrounders.

Kallis' bowling is overrated.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

This is literally one of the worst points to bring up in this discussion. No one is discussing ODIs here at all. Although if you have to bring up that silly discussion, Imran was the highest scorer in the WC final, and without his pivotal innings pakistan would have just crumbled (e.g. 1999 WC final). Kallis didn't even win a World Cup.

Imran didn’t win the World Cup alone. It was a collective effort whereas Kallis single handedly won the Champions Trophy which is one of the most underrated achievements which none seem to speak. Imran wasn’t player of the tournament or the second leading run scorer or wicket taker or the player of the match in the finals and semi finals..

whereas Kallis was all these…

Even if India hadn’t won the 2011 World Cup Sachin Tendulkar and Virat Kohli would still be revered like they are as of now.. So not having a World Cup point is the worst point one ever made in this thread!

Well i’m not saying Imran is inferior to Kallis just because of these points. But all here seem to compare Kallis limitations VS Imran’s achievements… compare both of their achievements and limitations
some might be even thinking to showcase Imran as a better batsman than Kallis

 

[subshakerz]

Imran didn’t win the World Cup. It was a collective effort whereas Kallis single handedly won the Champions Trophy which is one of the most underrated achievements which none seem to speak. Imran wasn’t player of the tournament or the second leading run scorer or wicket taker or the player of the match in the finals and semi finals..

whereas Kallis was all these…

Even if India hadn’t won the 2011 World Cup Sachin Tendulkar and Virat Kohli would still be revered like they are as of now.. So not having a World Cup point is the worst point one ever made in this thread!

Well i’m not saying Imran is inferior to Kallis just because of these points. But all here seem to compare Kallis limitations VS Imran’s achievements… compare both of their achievements and limitations
some might be even thinking to showcase Imran as a better batsman than Kallis

Test cricket, not ODIs.

 

[smash84]

Imran didn’t win the World Cup alone. It was a collective effort whereas Kallis single handedly won the Champions Trophy which is one of the most underrated achievements which none seem to speak. Imran wasn’t player of the tournament or the second leading run scorer or wicket taker or the player of the match in the finals and semi finals..

whereas Kallis was all these…

Even if India hadn’t won the 2011 World Cup Sachin Tendulkar and Virat Kohli would still be revered like they are as of now.. So not having a World Cup point is the worst point one ever made in this thread!

Well i’m not saying Imran is inferior to Kallis just because of these points. But all here seem to compare Kallis limitations VS Imran’s achievements… compare both of their achievements and limitations
some might be even thinking to showcase Imran as a better batsman than Kallis

World Cup >>> Champions trophy

 

[ankitj]

I have voted Kallis because it has become obvious that he is the benchmark by which we rate all greats.

That's Jadeja.

 

[kyear2]

Imran averaged 40 with the bat during his bowling peak from 80 to 88.

To be clear, by my definition, any player that is a regular in the top 7 batting positions and of 5 main bowlers used is an allrounder, including Kallis.

However, ATG allrounders like Sobers and Imran who can be selected in the team based on both disciplines are objectively better allrounders.

Kallis' bowling is overrated.

The fist criteria is perfectly fine, and they both qualify.

I didn't immediately recognize that you're in your element today, literally you're two favorite players to advocate for.

I believe and you're well aware that I do, that Imran's batting record is soft. The big scores for the most part wasn't match winning or saving impactful and that's where I give Sobers the big advantage over him in the secondary disciple. Kallis had how many 5fers in winning efforts? That's more impactful, that's where he gets the edge for me. That's it.

 

[subshakerz]

The fist criteria is perfectly fine, and they both qualify.

I didn't immediately recognize that you're in your element today, literally you're two favorite players to advocate for.

I believe and you're well aware that I do, that Imran's batting record is soft. The big scores for the most part wasn't match winning or saving impactful and that's where I give Sobers the big advantage over him in the secondary disciple. Kallis had how many 5fers in winning efforts? That's more impactful, that's where he gets the edge for me. That's it.

Doesn't matter was you think of Imran's batting record, he played as a pure bat for his team in the middle of his bowling peak and by the end of his career was the best bat in the team.

Kallis? 5fers? Are you kidding me? Let's ignore the fact that he played virtually double the game of Imran. No amount of fifers can make us ignore Kallis taking less than 2 wickets a game and bowling a far less bowling load than any pacer.

Based on his record alone, Kallis wasn't good enough to be considered a regular bowler. You know that.

Kallis the bowler is comparable to Hadlee the bat.

Sobers the bowler is comparable to Imran the bat.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

All beside the point. How were they as a overall in these disciplines?

Imran could still scratch a place in most test sides. Nobody is picking Kallis at 1.5 wickets a test.

Wickets per Test can’t be completely justified with 1.5
South Africa definitely had a better bowling than Pakistan those days (with the support of the home conditions)
Donald, Pollock, Ntini >> Imran, Nawaz, Qadir
Steyn, Pollock, Ntini, Morkel, Philander>= Imran, Qadir, Akram (mainly dur to Steyn’s and Philander’s peak
Steyn rank 1 for around 6 years
Philander at peak 50 wickets in just 7 Tests… best peak ever in recent times)
So Kallis had to share his wicket tally with those bowlers…Imran had the facility to get more wickets/ match as he didn’t had to share his wicket tally as Kallis did with his fellow teammates. Had South Africa the same quality attack like those of Pakistan of the 70s till 84… Kallis would definitely had a better wickets per match around 2 or something…
Still I agree that Kallis would’nt have a been choice for teams alone with his bowling.
Imran’s average of 37 is good … as he gets selected for his batting on most sides..
but you scroll through his peak most saying he averages 40 in that period, in that case Kallis averages 26.77 at his peak (2001-02). With that peak definitely he is into any sides with the ball

Imran best of rank 12 you mentioned, You never mentioned what Kallis peak of no. 6 with the ball
Anyone having no idea about Kallis would think his peak was something in 40ish with the ball! by reading this thread!
You actually make Kallis Extremely underrated with the ball….

 

[Coronis]

Doesn't matter was you think of Imran's batting record, he played as a pure bat for his team in the middle of his bowling peak and by the end of his career was the best bat in the team.

Kallis? 5fers? Are you kidding me? Let's ignore the fact that he played virtually double the game of Imran. No amount of fifers can make us ignore Kallis taking less than 2 wickets a game and bowling a far less bowling load than any pacer.

Based on his record alone, Kallis wasn't good enough to be considered a regular bowler. You know that.

Kallis the bowler is comparable to Hadlee the bat.

Sobers the bowler is comparable to Imran the bat.

How did he manage that?

 

[Cricket Bliss]

In short Kallis averaging 26.77 and ranking up to no. 6 with the ball at peak is definitely an achievement more than what Imran accomplished with the bat at his peak

 

[Coronis]

Somehow Kallis not taking a lot of wickets after what 2004 is a big deal but hey, take a look at Imran’s batting for most of his career.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

World Cup >>> Champions trophy

Single Handed Victory >>> Collective Team Effort Victory (in case of Player Comparisons)

Winning Tournaments is a collective team effort…
Had Gibbs taken the catch of Steve Waugh or had Donald run the final run South Africa would’ve reached the finals and had the chance of winning it. Well that loss has nothing to do with Kallis. Kallis was even the top scorer in the semi finals… Even if South Africa had won the 1999 World Cup , still in the point of view of Kallis 1998 Knockout Trophy would stand out more as its was single handedly done

 

[kyear2]

Single Handed Victory >>> Collective Team Effort Victory (in case of Player Comparisons)

Winning Tournaments is a collective team effort…
Had Gibbs taken the catch of Steve Waugh or had Donald run the final run South Africa would’ve reached the finals and had the chance of winning it. Well that loss has nothing to do with Kallis. Kallis was even the top scorer in the semi finals… Even if South Africa had won the 1999 World Cup , still in the point of view of Kallis 1998 Knockout Trophy would stand out more as its was single handedly done

Unless specifically referenced, all conversations are referring to test cricket only.

 

[akilana]

Kallis took 1.5 wicket so he's bang average is a dumb take. It doesn't say much about his ability but about the team usage of him as he became premier batsman of the team. Kallis bowled more in the first half of his career and he bowled less when he became the premier batsman of the team. Say Kallis play another 100 tests without bowling a single over, his wicket per match would go down to the level of Sachin or other random part timers. It doesn't make Kallis's skillset or achievement less valuable.
If Lara plays another 100 tests and his average plummet to 40, it doesn't make him a lesser batsman than Younis Khan.

 

[smash84]

Single Handed Victory >>> Collective Team Effort Victory (in case of Player Comparisons)

Winning Tournaments is a collective team effort…
Had Gibbs taken the catch of Steve Waugh or had Donald run the final run South Africa would’ve reached the finals and had the chance of winning it. Well that loss has nothing to do with Kallis. Kallis was even the top scorer in the semi finals… Even if South Africa had won the 1999 World Cup , still in the point of view of Kallis 1998 Knockout Trophy would stand out more as its was single handedly done

Depends on where the effort takes place.

If it takes place in a World Cup final then it is >>>>> than a champions trophy final.

Nobody really rates champions trophy performances on this forum in the larger scheme of things. If you do, then you're wasting your time bringing it up in this thread.

 

[Bolo.]

Going off this 92 tests after 2004 thing, he has 74 tests before that. I wonder how many fast bowlers have played more tests than that.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Unless specifically referenced, all conversations are referring to test cricket only.

Got it. First i mentioned since none seem to mention Kallis achievements. Then got it was only about Test Cricket
Since replies came to it i had to speak, that was why

 

[akilana]

Going off this 92 tests after 2004 thing, he has 74 tests before that. I wonder how many fast bowlers have played more tests than that.

Kallis has has bowled more overs throughout his test career than Imran, Steyn, Lee, Lillee, Waqar etc.. make of it what you'll.