Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

[Cricket Bliss]

Imran. His captaincy adds more value than Kallis's fielding and I also think that bowling all-rounders are a bit more valuable than batting all-rounders.

Not all people gets the privilege of being captain.. But every Cricketer has to field.. So it is a sort of compulsory thing..
No one becomes a great cricketer just for his captaincy. You have to be above average in any other departments. But there are cricketers who are revered for their fielding but enjoys just mediocre status in other departments (although rarely) such as Eknath Solkar, Jonty Rhodes (in Tests). Rhodes even played 52 Tests with mediocre batting calibre mostly because of his exemplary fielding
so fielding > captaincy any day
and Kallis one of the 3 ever to claim 200 catches on Test Cricket. He rarely misses any catch

So Kallis Fielding >> Imran Captaincy any day

stop overrating Imran. The only thing left to say is Imran a better batsman than Kallis which most of you might be wondering how to prove it.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

r/cricket trying desperately to make Kallis matter in that thread was very funny

Sobers took 4 wickets per match at an avg of 27 or so for 7 years

Dont consider wicket per match much. Sobers had far less inferior bowling attack in comparison to Kallis.
Griffith, Hall and Gibbs were great but was less great than Donald, Pollock, Ntini or Steyn, Pollock, Ntini. So Kallis had to share his wicket tally more than Sobers does.
Had Kallis played instead of Sobers for the West Indies, his average would’ve dropped but he would get more chances to bowl and would have better wickets/ match tally

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Imran has the edge in primary skills, though closer than some are saying. I rank Imran somewhere between 6th and 8th and Kallis somewhere in the mid teens. I disliked his style and found it a bit selfish, but his record is impressive, especially on home pitches.

Imran takes the win in the secondary role more comfortably, though not a run away. Kallis could be handful in the right conditions and when he wanted to.

Kallis takes the tertiary skill, he was truly one of the all time greats in the cordon. He was safe and surprisingly mobile for a big man.

So Imran

Home pitches?
Kallis averaged 58 in India and 83 in Pakistan, the most difficult conditions for any batsmen from SENA conditions

 

[kyear2]

Imran and Sobers are both unique in that in their secondary skills, they are good enough to be selected in most teams on that alone, but are ATG in primary skills.

Kallis based on his record, no. He didn't have the load or output.

I'm pretty sure that Kallis has won / contributed to more victories with the ball than Imran did with the bat.

 

[kyear2]

Not all people gets the privilege of being captain.. But every Cricketer has to field.. So it is a sort of compulsory thing..
No one becomes a great cricketer just for his captaincy. You have to be above average in any other departments. But there are cricketers who are revered for their fielding but enjoys just mediocre status in other departments (although rarely) such as Eknath Solkar, Jonty Rhodes (in Tests). Rhodes even played 52 Tests with mediocre batting calibre mostly because of his exemplary fielding
so fielding > captaincy any day
and Kallis one of the 3 ever to claim 200 catches on Test Cricket. He rarely misses any catch

So Kallis Fielding >> Imran Captaincy any day

stop overrating Imran. The only thing left to say is Imran a better batsman than Kallis which most of you might be wondering how to prove it.

Kallis was one of the greatest slip fielders ever and was invaluable to SA in that regard, he took some blinders.

 

[kyear2]

Dont consider wicket per match much. Sobers had far less inferior bowling attack in comparison to Kallis.
Griffith, Hall and Gibbs were great but was less great than Donald, Pollock, Ntini or Steyn, Pollock, Ntini. So Kallis had to share his wicket tally more than Sobers does.
Had Kallis played instead of Sobers for the West Indies, his average would’ve dropped but he would get more chances to bowl and would have better wickets/ match tally

We had some woeful attacks during Sobers's career. There were times when he and Worrell opened the bowling and on some ridiculously flat pitches. Plus Sobers, to his internal detriment, severely overbowled himself and was sometimes the workhorse in-between new bal spells for the specialists.
He also started off his career bowling finger soon which was by some distance his least effective bowling style.

 

[Bolo.]

I'm pretty sure that Kallis has won / contributed to more victories with the ball than Imran did with the bat.

Both of them are extremely hard to work out. Taking X wickets or scoring Y runs is only a portion of contribution. Ripple effects from team selection to physical, mental, and numerical impact.

 

[sledger]

Was Kallis really an all-rounder for much of his career? From like 2004 onward he was basically a part-time bowler.

 

[kyear2]

Both of them are extremely hard to work out. Taking X wickets or scoring Y runs is only a portion of contribution. Ripple effects from team selection to physical, mental, and numerical impact.

I've looked through matches for big performances with the bat for Imran, Hadlee, and I think Pollock to see the impact their hundreds (and think I went down to a slow as 70's or 80's as well) had in victories. I was shockingly low.

From memory Imran had one match saving knock, can't remember vs who but the rest were high scoring draws. On multiple occasions the 3rd century if the innings type scenario and little impact for 4th innings knocks.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Was Kallis really an all-rounder for much of his career? From like 2004 onward he was basically a part-time bowler.

Definitely.. From 2004 Kallis picked 137 wickets from 93 Tests… Yes his best performances with the ball came before that… Still this record doesn’t make him a part time bowler.. Part time bowlers are someone like Tendulkar who has 46 wickets from 200 Tests

 

[kyear2]

Was Kallis really an all-rounder for much of his career? From like 2004 onward he was basically a part-time bowler.

Isn't that what an all rounder is. Spell the main guys and contribute with the odd wicket.
SA mastered that balance so much better than Sobers did with himself.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

As coronis said this,coronis then proceeded to quickly run through the internet to find something.
Mate he has no notable bowling performances
he averages 38 vs Aus, 36 vs Eng, 41 vs Ind, 40 vs Pak, 34 vs Nz

ohhh the mighty performances vs west indies, bangladesh and zimbabwe where he has statpadded some incredible numbers there?

Kallis averages 29 in England, given the conditions are swing… still 29 isn’t mediocre … it’s above that…
not saying that his bowling is next level, but stop underrating him

 

[subshakerz]

I've looked through matches for big performances with the bat for Imran, Hadlee, and I think Pollock to see the impact their hundreds (and think I went down to a slow as 70's or 80's as well) had in victories. I was shockingly low.

From memory Imran had one match saving knock, can't remember vs who but the rest were high scoring draws. On multiple occasions the 3rd century if the innings type scenario and little impact for 4th innings knocks.

No, Imran had two matchsaving tons, one vs WI quartet and one in Australia. One ton in a victory against India also.

Point is Imran wasn't some worldclass bat, neither was Sobers a worldclass bowler, but they could make most sides on those disciplines.

You don't seem to put the same scrutiny for Kallis who doesn't even take 2 wickets a tests even after gouging himself on minnows.

 

[Bolo.]

I've looked through matches for big performances with the bat for Imran, Hadlee, and I think Pollock to see the impact their hundreds (and think I went down to a slow as 70's or 80's as well) had in victories. I was shockingly low.

From memory Imran had one match saving knock, can't remember vs who but the rest were high scoring draws. On multiple occasions the 3rd century if the innings type scenario and little impact for 4th innings knocks.

They are more likely to impact lower scoring matches, where a tailender is unlikely to go big, either by running out of partners or not being good enough. There will be a lot of game changing 40s or whatever in there. Partnership runs + tiring the bowlers out + mentally putting the other team on the backfoot.

I don't think it happened for these 3, but for someone like Flintoff, the confidence to go in with 5 bowlers can make a big difference.

 

[subshakerz]

Isn't that what an all rounder is. Spell the main guys and contribute with the odd wicket.
SA mastered that balance so much better than Sobers did with himself.

There are standards of all-rounders though. Kallis the bowler wouldn't be close to team selection based on his record.

It's shocking how much you will scrutinise Imran's batting and how easy a ride you give Kallis for his bowling.

 

[subshakerz]

Definitely.. From 2004 Kallis picked 137 wickets from 93 Tests… Yes his best performances with the ball came before that… Still this record doesn’t make him a part time bowler.. Part time bowlers are someone like Tendulkar who has 46 wickets from 200 Tests

137 wickets from 93 tests is below ordinary, sorry.

You don't seem to know the difference between a genuine 5th seamer level, which is Kallis, and 4th seamer/spinner level, which is Sobers, roughly equal to Imran who is no.6 bat level.

Kallis is below the grade of selection on bowling alone.

 

[kyear2]

There are standards of all-rounders though. Kallis the bowler wouldn't be close to team selection based on his record.

It's shocking how much you will scrutinise Imran's batting and how easy a ride you give Kallis for his bowling.

I have never used that standard for all rounders. I think that's ridiculous actually

By that standard if you are trying to make an at xi as an all rounder you should be able to make it in either and that's not remotely possible.
Imran during his bowling peak wouldn't make a decently strong batting team, I've seen references to Logie but Logie was a consistently better batsman than Imran and 37 is a below average test average. Sobers isn't making any strong team as a first string fast bowler, wrist spinner possibly but again, that can't be the criteria for an all rounder.
Make tangible contributions to the team in multiple disciplines which is what Kallis accomplished.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

No, Imran had two matchsaving tons, one vs WI quartet and one in Australia. One ton in a victory against India also.

Point is Imran wasn't some worldclass bat, neither was Sobers a worldclass bowler, but they could make most sides on those disciplines.

You don't seem to put the same scrutiny for Kallis who doesn't even take 2 wickets a tests even after gouging himself on minnows.

None seem to mention that Kallis single handedly won the 1998 Knockout Trophy for South Africa.
Being Player of the Match on both the semi final and the final. Taking 5 wickets in the final against West Indies which wisden rated as the 15th best bowling performance in ODI in 2002.
He was the leading wicket taker and the second leading run scorer in that tournament and was the player of the match. This being South Africa’s only Trophy makes Kallis’s all round contribution even sweeter. Becoming the leading wicket taker in your country’s only Trophy has significance.
Of course he performed well with the bat, well it’s not necessary for him to be muck with the bat just to prove his testament as a bowler alone like you say in Imran’s case (not form with the ball, performed well with the bat)

Kallis also had his match winning performance with the ball like the 2003 Headingly Test against England were his 6/54 provided South Africa the victory.
His performed well against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe (minnows) but that was just 12 Tests and 38 wickets.
Rest in 154 Tests he picked 254 wickets against not so minnows. People speak like he played 50 ofd Tests and took 150 odd wickets out of his 292 against them.
Kallis peak in bowling was around 2001-02 were in 22 Tests he had 66 wickets @ 26.77 . Well im not saying he had all time great peak but definitely it was good and he peaked at no.6 in the bowling rankings in Tests which is definitely great
No one here mentions these about Kallis, but simply states Kallis’s limitations… and will dig into every possible minute achievement which Imran made..

If Imran ranked no.12 at his best in batting rankings, Kallis ranked no. 6 at his best in bowling rankings which is definitely an achievement above Imran

 

[Cricket Bliss]

137 wickets from 93 tests is below ordinary, sorry.

You don't seem to know the difference between a genuine 5th seamer level, which is Kallis, and 4th seamer/spinner level, which is Sobers, roughly equal to Imran who is no.6 bat level.

Kallis is below the grade of selection on bowling alone.

Well at best Kallis peaked no. 6 in Tests with the ball >>> Imran’s best of no. 12 in Tests with the bat

don’t just go by Kallis limitations VS every possible fraction of Imran’s achievements …. bias might say so..still

 

[Socerer 01]

im now convinced this is a @StephenZA multi