Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

[Bolo.]

Imrans bowling peak from 80 to 88 was around 48 tests and he averaged 40 with the bat then. He then played 15 tests as a pure bat towards the end, averaging 72.

Sobers from 61 onwards took over 3 wickets a tests for around 60 games, coinciding with his batting peak.

Kallis had around 60 odd tests in the beginning taking 2 wickets a test, and as he took over a SAs main bat, his bowling output decreased to 1.5 wickets a test for 100 tests.

So Kallis compared to Imran and Sobers wasn't test class standard as a bowler while batting for the majority of his career. That is the major difference. As his career progressed, his bowling diminished, whereas with the other two, their second discipline was still doing strong.

Imran averaged 32 in 1980 and 27 in 81. This isn't test standard. Then he missed 3/4 (or whatever) of games in 84, 85 and 88. Plus could not bowl.

Here's Sobers from an article. The 69 onwards looks a whole lot like Kallis mid to late 2000s.

As I said, very comparable timeframes.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran averaged 32 in 1980 and 27 in 81. This isn't test standard. Then he missed 3/4 (or whatever) of games in 84, 85 and 88. Plus could not bowl.

Here's Sobers from an article. The 69 onwards looks a whole lot like Kallis mid to late 2000s.

As I said, very comparable timeframes.

View attachment 39547

1980 Imran just hit his batting strides but even if you want to start in 1982 until the end of his career that is still a majority of Imran's test career in which he was a test standard bat.

And if Sobers late career was like Kallis early career as in minimum test class, he still has a mid career portion where he was a genuine good bowler taking nearly 4 wickets a tests, beyond anything Kallis achieved.

And where is all this parsing and circumspection for Kallis the bowler? Who fattened his record on minnows and doesn't take 2 wickets a test against any proper team outside WI.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran's peak came between 1980-88
He scored 2000 runs around 50 tests in this period, which is just Hadlee level. Not a proper specialist bat.

Imran improved his batting after that, but he was no ATG bowler by then.

Hadlee better bowler + better fielder
Imran slightly better bat than hadlee.

Imran's batting is super overrated

Yes let's ignore average when convenient.

 

[subshakerz]

Lets make it more clear.
Kallis was a good bowler for his first 7.5 years till the mid of 2003. for the next 10 years his bowling was mediocre or at times slightly below it.

Imran was way below mediocre with the bat for the first 9 years till 1980. From 1980 till 90 for the nest 10 years his batting was good.

Imran just averaged 20 with the bat from 71-79 with just one fifty. that is any day way below average.
You try to make Kallis low than what he actually is

False comparison.

Imran was 1980 onwards averaged 50 with the bat and scores all his tons and all but one 50 in that time. That is far above Kallis taking 2 wickets a test at his bowling peak which is a minority of his career anyways.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

False comparison.

Imran was 1980 onwards averaged 50 with the bat and scores all his tons and all but one 50 in that time. That is far above Kallis taking 2 wickets a test at his bowling peak which is a minority of his career anyways.

As I said numerous times wickets per match comparison never does justice as it heavily depends upon your bowling teamates. South Africa had better attack than Pakisthan and any day far more than West Indies…
Sobers mid career of 4 wicket per match would’ve reduced heavily if he played with Donald, Pollock, Ntini line up…

Still repeating the same wicket per match is like i saying Imran s***** in the 70s with the bat again and again even when a better comparison is provided

 

[Cricket Bliss]

False comparison.

Imran was 1980 onwards averaged 50 with the bat and scores all his tons and all but one 50 in that time. That is far above Kallis taking 2 wickets a test at his bowling peak which is a minority of his career anyways.

Conveniently increase his average to suit your needs. Imran never averaged 50 with the bat from 1980. It was 46….
If you’re referring from 1982 yes he averaged 51.. but your concept of saying he was good with the bat in 2/3 rd career reduces to 1/2nd.
In Batting Imran’s best performance was against Indian bowlers at sub continent conditions which is nothing more than good
Was excellent against New Zealand

mediocre against England and Australia
Against the best attack of his era the West Indies his performance was the worst.
Avg 30 against Sri Lankan bowling of that era was even worser

and in Kallis bowling barring the minnows Kallis had good performance in Sri Lanka too averaging 32 against Sangakkara, Jayawardene etc.

In England Kallis has 39 wickets at 15 Tests @ 29 which is good.

 

[subshakerz]

As I said numerous times wickets per match comparison never does justice as it heavily depends upon your bowling teamates. South Africa had better attack than Pakisthan and any day far more than West Indies…
Sobers mid career of 4 wicket per match would’ve reduced heavily if he played with Donald, Pollock, Ntini line up…

Still repeating the same wicket per match is like i saying Imran s***** in the 70s with the bat again and again even when a better comparison is provided

Yet Kallis took more WPM with Donald Pollock at their peak than later in his career. Kallis 95 to 2003 was a minimum test standard bowler and nothing more, bowled mostly in short spells and more effective against weaker teams.

Would Kallis have done better if bowled more? Would it have affected his batting adversely? We don't know. We just have his record as it is.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

I think averaging 46 especially in the 80s and 90s(as Imran did in 63 of his 88 matches) is more impressive than averaging 28+ with the ball as Kallis did till 2003(especially since he did best at home on spicy SA pitches).

I first thought it was 40.. Then understood its 46. If its 46 then it is impressive…
but you don’t seem to mention that sub continent wickets on any day were flat - dusty wickets… there were not much green tops in Pakisthan to specifically mention that only Kallis had the support of home wickets

on Australian and English wickets his batting was just mediocre, in West Indies it was worse…
Plauding for his efforts in New Zealand…
then his good performance was in the subcontinent flat - dusty wickets

 

[subshakerz]

I first thought it was 40.. Then understood its 46. If its 46 then it is impressive…
but you don’t seem to mention that sub continent wickets on any day were flat - dusty wickets… there were not much green tops in Pakisthan to specifically mention that only Kallis had the support of home wickets

on Australian and English wickets his batting was just mediocre, in West Indies it was worse…
Plauding for his efforts in New Zealand…
then his good performance was in the subcontinent flat - dusty wickets

Shifting goalposts.

First you say averaging 20 odd as Imran did early career was mediocre.

Now you say he was mediocre in Australia and England where he averaged 36 and 35 overall, scoring hundreds in both countries, and in his batting peak far more than that, averaging around 50 in both countries with multiple tours. On top of that scoring runs in NZ against Hadlee and in India. He was a legit good bat from 80s to career end.

Your entire argument has now fallen apart the more you peer into Imran's batting record.

 

[subshakerz]

This is Imran during his batting stretch for most of his career.

Now will you please be honest and admit Kallis as bowler has nothing to compare with this?

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Yet Kallis took more WPM with Donald Pollock at their peak than later in his career. Kallis 95 to 2003 was a minimum test standard bowler and nothing more, bowled mostly in short spells and more effective against weaker teams.

Would Kallis have done better if bowled more? Would it have affected his batting adversely? We don't know. We just have his record as it is.

in his later years he had to bowl with even better bowlers. He played with Donald but he only played with Steyn at his peak.. and Steyn was consistently at Rank 1 and Philander 50 wickets in just 7 tests… definitely Kallis was old and not his peak then but in 2012 he averaged 28.. Im not saying Kallis would’ve averaged better if there was no Steyn and Philander but his WPM would definitely increase. if he played along with Hall, Griffith and Gibbs like sobers he would’ve got the opportunity to ball more… (including in his peak) and that would definitely boost his WPM…
so bowling average is by far a better thing to take in to comparison here

 

[subshakerz]

in his later years he had to bowl with even better bowlers. He played with Donald but he only played with Steyn at his peak.. and Steyn was consistently at Rank 1 and Philander 50 wickets in just 7 tests… definitely Kallis was old and not his peak then but in 2012 he averaged 28.. Im not saying Kallis would’ve averaged better if there was no Steyn and Philander but his WPM would definitely increase. if he played along with Hall, Griffith and Gibbs like sobers he would’ve got the opportunity to ball more… (including in his peak) and that would definitely boost his WPM…
so bowling average is by far a better thing to take in to comparison here

Maybe and maybe that bowling load would have brought his batting average into the 40s. We don't know.

Bowling average doesn't mean much if you are mostly used for shorter spells as a rest bowler or enforcer. He didn't have the frontline bowler role really for a stretch of his career but I am willing to grant he was minimum test class until 2003.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Shifting goalposts.

First you say averaging 20 odd as Imran did early career was mediocre.

Now you say he was mediocre in Australia and England where he averaged 36 and 35 overall, scoring hundreds in both countries, and in his batting peak far more than that, averaging around 50 in both countries with multiple tours. On top of that scoring runs in NZ against Hadlee and in India. He was a legit good bat from 80s to career end.

Your entire argument has now fallen apart the more you peer into Imran's batting record.

If it is a comparison between Imran and Kallis, then why cant I peer into Imran's batting?
You once peered into Kallis bowling.
Earlier I was mostly into Kallis because none of mentioned his strengths, just simply go with the limitations and peer into individual tour to tour great innings of Imran, so it was mandatory for me to look into his records.
Like you mentioned Imran reached number 12 at his peak and said Kallis as below 5th standard bowler. You never mentioned Kallis ranked at number 6th at his peak which you would never.

Earlier I never mentioned Imran's 20 as mediocre, I mentioned it as way blow mediocre 2 times. so averaging 35 is pretty mediocre.
I even aplauded his performance against New Zealand.

 

[subshakerz]

If it is a comparison between Imran and Kallis, then why cant I peer into Imran's batting?
You once peered into Kallis bowling.
Earlier I was mostly into Kallis because none of mentioned his strengths, just simply go with the limitations and peer into individual tour to tour great innings of Imran, so it was mandatory for me to look into his records.
Like you mentioned Imran reached number 12 at his peak and said Kallis as below 5th standard bowler. You never mentioned Kallis ranked at number 6th at his peak which you would never.

Earlier I never mentioned Imran's 20 as mediocre, I mentioned it as way blow mediocre 2 times. so averaging 35 is pretty mediocre.
I even aplauded his performance against New Zealand.

You are clearly subjecting Imran to a level of scrutiny that you aren't for Kallis.

Please check this batting peak of Imran and tell me how you can claim Kallis the bowler is better?

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Cricket Bliss]

All Rounders are more about the balance between bat and bowl.
Since we go with averages so much , the averages for all rounders must also be considered (ie. Batting average - Bowling average)
Well Imran fanboys here wouldn't do that since it favors Kallis by far.

Imran
Batting - 37.69
Bowling - 22.81
Difference - 14.88

Kallis
Batting - 55.37
Bowling - 32.65
Difference - 22.72

Here Kallis (22.72) greater than Imran (14.88)
In fact among recognised all rounders only Sobers has higher average than Kallis that too marginally.

I'm not saying Kallis is better than Imran just because of this reason, but this a very valid thing that must be taken into consideration for a true and fair judgement.

and if anyone comes with the arguement that Kallis era is btting fiendly, then Kallis bowled in that era or if Kallis bowled in Green tops till 2003 then the same Kallis batted there.

Same in the case of Imran if he bowled in the flat wickets of pakisthan then he also enjoyed the advantage of batting in that conditions.

Im not saying this average completely determines who is better, since there occurs a balance between bat and ball with respect to era, of course it could also change between what type of all rounder you are a how much you bowled etc... but that is just marginally... this average is more accurate for comparison than batting vs batting averages or bowling vs bowling averages across eras.

 

[subshakerz]

All Rounders are more about the balance between bat and bowl.
Since we go with averages so much , the averages for all rounders must also be considered (ie. Batting average - Bowling average)
Well Imran fanboys here wouldn't do that since it favors Kallis by far.

Imran
Batting - 37.69
Bowling - 22.81
Difference - 14.88

Kallis
Batting - 55.37
Bowling - 32.65
Difference - 22.72

Here Kallis (22.72) greater than Imran (14.88)
In fact among recognised all rounders only Sobers has higher average than Kallis that too marginally.

I'm not saying Kallis is better than Imran just because of this reason, but this a very valid thing that must be taken into consideration for a true and fair judgement.

and if anyone comes with the arguement that Kallis era is btting fiendly, then Kallis bowled in that era or if Kallis bowled in Green tops till 2003 then the same Kallis batted there.

Same in the case of Imran if he bowled in the flat wickets of pakisthan then he also enjoyed the advantage of batting in that conditions.

Im not saying this average completely determines who is better, since there occurs a balance between bat and ball with respect to era, of course it could also change between what type of all rounder you are a how much you bowled etc... but that is just marginally... this average is more accurate for comparison than batting vs batting averages or bowling vs bowling averages across eras.

Classically shifting to a new argument once you lost the previous one.

 

[Socerer 01]

i figured out who the greatest all rounder is with this ONE SIMPLE TRICK

Bradman
Batting - 99.94
Bowling - 36
Difference - 63.94

 

[Cricket Bliss]

You are clearly subjecting Imran to a level of scrutiny that you aren't for Kallis.

Please check this batting peak of Imran and tell me how you can claim Kallis the bowler is better?

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Why couldn't I ... why is it even bother to mention...both of their career must be closley examined... You did find every possible acheivements of Imran but never did the same for kallis, so why could i mention his limitations or drawbacks.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Classically shifting to a new argument once you lost the previous one.

Classically shifting this argument because Imran comfortably losses here.

Every thing must be considered.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

i figured out who the greatest all rounder is with this ONE SIMPLE TRICK

Bradman
Batting - 99.94
Bowling - 36
Difference - 63.94

that was why I used the word recognised all rounders......... which matters a lot