Socerer 01
International Captain
since i never watched him play
was Imran’s fielding so bad that it doesnt get any mention?
was Imran’s fielding so bad that it doesnt get any mention?
Well below parsince i never watched him play
was Imran’s fielding so bad that it doesnt get any mention?
It wasn't too bad when he started out. It got bad once he got captaincy though.since i never watched him play
was Imran’s fielding so bad that it doesnt get any mention?
I agree, SA handled Kallis well. But then he got off with a lesser workload and hence a lesser output than a proper test bowler without having it test his batting peak.I haven't and wouldn't read the last 3 pages, but my only counter to Subs is that while Kallis is pushed down for lack of workload, I believe that SA handled him almost perfectly, especially as he got older. Why over work your best batsman with the ball, especially when his value is just as high if not higher at 2nd. Let him fill in a few over, assist with the rotation and hopefully break a partnership or two. I wish that's how Sobers would have handled himself while batting at 4 and standing at 2nd, way more value to the team.
It should be about what's best for the team and not would look look on statguru 20 years later.
Their argument is actually anti-Kallis since it suggests that unlike Sobers, he couldn't handle the pressure of more bowling which would affect his batting.I don't see how it's a point in Kallis' favour that he was handled in such an optimal way and he still didn't exactly ever put up great bowling numbers.
That's not what I'm saying. I think it did affect Sobers's batting and I wish that Sobers was handled the same way Kallis was.Their argument is actually anti-Kallis since it suggests that unlike Sobers, he couldn't handle the pressure of more bowling which would affect his batting.
Great bowling numbers compared to whom though?I don't see how it's a point in Kallis' favour that he was handled in such an optimal way and he still didn't exactly ever put up great bowling numbers.
Well I didn’t said Kallis won the final single handedly but the tournament single handedly…not just the final…
and when considering final… a five wicket haul is any day better than a 3 wicket + 50…. especially in ODI because you don’t often get five wicket haul like centuries!
Pardon for my quotingDude, at least quote the words correctly. I am not even sure where my words are beginning and yours are ending
You don't have to imagine anything, Imran was instrumental in finishing the game and pulling out the team from a bad situation. Also took key wickets. Kallis took wickets and at the time of batting got out when the going got tough. Simple. Imran > Kallis
Used optimally is in reference to his career. He was never used in an optimal way for his bowling figures. Early career he wasn't protected. Just playing with on average 6 bowlers, including 2 ATGs. His role was mainly enforcer- hassling the bats with pace and bounce at stages in the innings where people were struggling to pick up wickets. He had some more genuine opportunities for wickets as well due to being able to extract more swing from an aging ball than the others, but he was never a bowler that could just rip through teams.I don't see how it's a point in Kallis' favour that he was handled in such an optimal way and he still didn't exactly ever put up great bowling numbers.
Used optimally is in reference to his career. He was never used in an optimal way for his bowling figures. Early career he wasn't protected. Just playing with on average 6 bowlers, including 2 ATGs. His role was mainly enforcer- hassling the bats with pace and bounce at stages in the innings where people were struggling to pick up wickets. He had some more genuine opportunities for wickets as well due to being able to extract more swing from an aging ball than the others, but he was never a bowler that could just rip through teams.
Late career he was both aging and bowling within himself, without early career big donkey spells. Focusing on containment when the ball wasn't doing much, and rotating the other bowlers.
There's some transition between these 2 periods when the other bowlers had weakened and he had more opportunity while wanting to bowl fast and attack, but it coincided with his batting taking off. I just don't think he could handle facing 200+ balls a match, slip fielding and bowling a full quota fast/FM. Not sure anyone could. Sobers came closest, but he batted lower, bowled slower, fielded slips less (I think). And Sobers broke his ability to bowl seam in around 30 games.
His averages and WPM under the 3 different long term captains do kinda show this- they roughly correspond with the phases outlined.
View attachment 39561
Agree with most of this. I don't think there is a clear cut relationship between batting position and difficulty when you are looking at positions lower than 5 though. It depends on style and quality of player. It does get easier against tiring bowlers and the old ball (with the caveat that the tail will often see the 2nd new ball). But protecting the tail and hitting out are challenges. Everyone is vulnerable at the start of an innings, and the lower you bat, the fewer opportunities you have to capitalise when set. As an extreme example, I think Bradman would probably average something like 40 if batting 11.Yeah, that's the issue with comparing a 5th bowlers to front line one. They don't get the best of conditions or the ball. Often coming on mid partnership and just being asked to hold on until the 2nd new ball or if one of the front line guys is being carted around the park and containment is required.
I asked a question earlier, who's he being compared to, front line guys of other reserve guys.
He did his job, are we comparing Imran to lower order guys or front line guys? The comp would also be less than flattering.
And that's before we look at the fact that Kallis for the worse of conditions while lower order batsmen comes in later in the innings when the bowlers are more fatigued and often against an older ball, hence easier conditions to bat in.
And that not factoring in the high no. of not outs etc.
Re Sobers though, depending on which part of his career, he did bowl quicker and actually also fielded at 2nd and only moved around to Gibbs where he varied between leg slip and **** leg, so just as intense.
And if course he batted lower only after taking on the ridiculous and self imposed work load. As he said, he just always wanted to be involved while on the field, be it bowling or fielding in the most critical positions.