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Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

Better cricketer ?

  • Kallis

    Votes: 17 27.4%
  • Imran

    Votes: 45 72.6%

  • Total voters
    62

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Doesn’t mean we have to ignore what Imran did before 1980. Just like you said about Kallis

In case of Kallis you take his entire career and for Imran his peak with the batting!
if comparing then take the entire career

Kallis till 2003 tour of England from his debut
Tests : 68
Wickets : 151
Wickets / match : 2.22
Average : 28.35

I guess bowling average of 28.35 is better than batting average of 40.

Even at the end of his career his stats or performance doesn’t signify him as just above part timers. He is comfortably a 4th seamer.
Yeah in case you didn't notice, that's only 68 games out of 166 games for Kallis. I already said he was test class for that time. He wasn't afterwards. He wasn't a part timer overall, but was a below average test bowler.

We don't ignore Imran before 1980, but the reality is that post 1980 was the majority of his test career in which he was an average to good bat, and overall ended up as an average test bat.

You can slice it any way you like, Kallis is a level below Imran in his second discipline.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Yeah in case you didn't notice, that's only 68 games out of 166 games for Kallis. I already said he was test class for that time. He wasn't afterwards. He wasn't a part timer overall, but was a below average test bowler.

We don't ignore Imran before 1980, but the reality is that post 1980 was the majority of his test career in which he was an average to good bat, and overall ended up as an average test bat.

You can slice it any way you like, Kallis is a level below Imran in his second discipline.
So you work in PR or marketing?

Like seriously, the way you go hard for Imran and Sachin is something to watch.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Yeah in case you didn't notice, that's only 68 games out of 166 games for Kallis. I already said he was test class for that time. He wasn't afterwards. He wasn't a part timer overall, but was a below average test bowler.

We don't ignore Imran before 1980, but the reality is that post 1980 was the majority of his test career in which he was an average to good bat, and overall ended up as an average test bat.

You can slice it any way you like, Kallis is a level below Imran in his second discipline.
People are allowed to disagree.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
Yeah and that 2/3rd you selected is a mix of him being test standard and not test standard. The point is to pick the period when he was consistently test standard.

I mean, is the idea that players have stages of their career really that hard to comprehend?

Imran's batting career had two main phases. Pre-1980 when he was nothing more than a useful bat, and post-1980 when his conversion began to improve notably and he was well more than test standard.
How many matches do you think Imran played as a test standard bat while bowling? It's the period 82-89. But he couldn't bowl in some and missed others in this period.

How many matches for Sobers? He wasn't test standard when bowling offspin. He had a very middle third of his career, but outside of that he's sub 2 WPM at around 40.

All 3 are very comparable in amount of time and proportion of test career as test standard. And in total workload (although workload per test did vary).
 

kyear2

International Coach
Did you miss the part where this thread was necrobumped specifically by a rabid Kallis fanboy to diss Imran? You're the Ying to Subshakerz's Yang on this one buddy, you don't get to talk down to him.
You once asked why was I obsessed with you, since I've made it my business to ignore your posts. You could be minded to do the same.

And for the record, I'm not speaking down to him, as much as we may disagree we are cordial to each other.
 

Cricket Bliss

School Boy/Girl Captain
Did you miss the part where this thread was necrobumped specifically by a rabid Kallis fanboy to diss Imran? You're the Ying to Subshakerz's Yang on this one buddy, you don't get to talk down to him.
This thread till most of it has been more or less been Imran Advantages VS Kallis limitations which PR fan boys like you seem to enjoy😂😂 … atleast try to acknowledge the advantages of Kallis and limit of Imran too… I understand your bias won’t agree…but try
 

trundler

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Kallis averaged 17.59 VS West Indies in 98-99 with a five wicket haul (West Indies might not be as strong as Australia, but bowling well against Lara (peak) and Chanderpa

This thread till most of it has been more or less been Imran Advantages VS Kallis limitations which PR fan boys like you seem to enjoy😂😂 … atleast try to acknowledge the advantages of Kallis and limit of Imran too… I understand your bias won’t agree…but try
Ok buddy. You can have your crusade.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
How many matches do you think Imran played as a test standard bat while bowling? It's the period 82-89. But he couldn't bowl in some and missed others in this period.

How many matches for Sobers? He wasn't test standard when bowling offspin. He had a very middle third of his career, but outside of that he's sub 2 WPM at around 40.

All 3 are very comparable in amount of time and proportion of test career as test standard. And in total workload (although workload per test did vary).
Imrans bowling peak from 80 to 88 was around 48 tests and he averaged 40 with the bat then. He then played 15 tests as a pure bat towards the end, averaging 72.

Sobers from 61 onwards took over 3 wickets a tests for around 60 games, coinciding with his batting peak.

Kallis had around 60 odd tests in the beginning taking 2 wickets a test, and as he took over a SAs main bat, his bowling output decreased to 1.5 wickets a test for 100 tests.

So Kallis compared to Imran and Sobers wasn't test class standard as a bowler while batting for the majority of his career. That is the major difference. As his career progressed, his bowling diminished, whereas with the other two, their second discipline was still doing strong.
 

Cricket Bliss

School Boy/Girl Captain
Imrans bowling peak from 80 to 88 was around 48 tests and he averaged 40 with the bat then. He then played 15 tests as a pure bat towards the end, averaging 72.

Sobers from 61 onwards took over 3 wickets a tests for around 60 games, coinciding with his batting peak.

Kallis had around 60 odd tests in the beginning taking 2 wickets a test, and as he took over a SAs main bat, his bowling output decreased to 1.5 wickets a test for 100 tests.

So Kallis compared to Imran and Sobers wasn't test class standard as a bowler while batting for the majority of his career. That is the major difference. As his career progressed, his bowling diminished, whereas with the other two, their second discipline was still doing strong.
I start this reply saying that I consider Kallis nothing more than a mediocre bowler.
Now a major factor which contributes to the wicket per match statistics is the quality of bowlers you have in your team.
Warne and Muralitharan are of almost the same caliber, but...
Muralitharan has 6 wickets per match whereas Warne has only 4.88 wickets per match. This significant difference is because Warne's team mates were McGrath, Gillespie and Lee. Muralitharan had the opportunity to grab more wickets in the match because only Chaminda Vaas matches the stature of Lee or Gillespie that too up to a certain extent. since the rest bowlers in him team were of mediocre stature Muralitharan had the luck to get more wickets. If Muralitharan played in for Australia instead of Warne along with McGrath and others surely he wouldn't have the luck to get 6 wickets per match as he wouldn't to ball as many overs as he did since Australian bowling attack would finish the opposition quicker than Sri Lanka generally. surely his wickets per match would drop as his fellow team mates will also grab wickets.

Similar is the scenario here
South Africa had the best bowling attack ever in the long run throughout the mid 90s till the mid 2010s.
Donald, Pollock , Ntini, Steyn (Ranked no.1 from 2008 - 2013), Morkel and Philander (best ever peak of this century - 50 wickets in just 7 tests)..so Kallis didn't have much luck there like Sobers to grab more wickets/ per match.
If South Africa had bowlers like Hall, Griffith and Gibbs instead of the above mentioned bowlers he would've grabbed more wickets/per tests since South Africa would require him to 'BALL MORE' and would get exposed more with the new ball which was not required since South Africa had Donald and other greats and they would get the work done upto a large extent. Even if Sobers bowled with these legends his tally would also drop from 2.6 wickets per tests since he would only be allowed/required less to 'BOWL PER MATCH'
Also like Kallis Sobers tally also reduced to 2 wickets per match from 3 when he out of his bowling peak which you never mentioned.
 

Cricket Bliss

School Boy/Girl Captain
Imrans bowling peak from 80 to 88 was around 48 tests and he averaged 40 with the bat then. He then played 15 tests as a pure bat towards the end, averaging 72.

Sobers from 61 onwards took over 3 wickets a tests for around 60 games, coinciding with his batting peak.

Kallis had around 60 odd tests in the beginning taking 2 wickets a test, and as he took over a SAs main bat, his bowling output decreased to 1.5 wickets a test for 100 tests.

So Kallis compared to Imran and Sobers wasn't test class standard as a bowler while batting for the majority of his career. That is the major difference. As his career progressed, his bowling diminished, whereas with the other two, their second discipline was still doing strong.
early part of Imran's career his batting was vague. It only improved in the 80s. having off season in the beginning or at the middle or end of the career has same effect.

Just by saying Kallis second discipline diminished and the same improved for Imran dose'nt make Imran superior as his second discipline in his start years was just way below mediocre whereas Kallis was good in that second discipline in his initial years.
(Agree with the 1/3rd and 2/3rd claims)

Lets make it more clear.
Kallis was a good bowler for his first 7.5 years till the mid of 2003. for the next 10 years his bowling was mediocre or at times slightly below it.

Imran was way below mediocre with the bat for the first 9 years till 1980. From 1980 till 90 for the nest 10 years his batting was good.

Imran just averaged 20 with the bat from 71-79 with just one fifty. that is any day way below average.
You try to make Kallis low than what he actually is
 

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
early part of Imran's career his batting was vague. It only improved in the 80s. having off season in the beginning or at the middle or end of the career has same effect.

Just by saying Kallis second discipline diminished and the same improved for Imran dose'nt make Imran superior as his second discipline in his start years was just way below mediocre whereas Kallis was good in that second discipline in his initial years.
(Agree with the 1/3rd and 2/3rd claims)

Lets make it more clear.
Kallis was a good bowler for his first 7.5 years till the mid of 2003. for the next 10 years his bowling was mediocre or at times slightly below it.

Imran was way below mediocre with the bat for the first 9 years till 1980. From 1980 till 90 for the nest 10 years his batting was good.

Imran just averaged 20 with the bat from 71-79 with just one fifty. that is any day way below average.
You try to make Kallis low than what he actually is
I think averaging 46 especially in the 80s and 90s(as Imran did in 63 of his 88 matches) is more impressive than averaging 28+ with the ball as Kallis did till 2003(especially since he did best at home on spicy SA pitches).
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
Imran's ATG bowler + handy bat period
1980-1988
played 48 tests scored 4 centuries and 10 fifties. ( nowhere close to a specialist bat )

in the Same period, Hadlee played 51 tests scored 2 centuries and 10 fifties. ( + Hadlee was better fielder )
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
Imran's peak came between 1980-88
He scored 2000 runs around 50 tests in this period, which is just Hadlee level. Not a proper specialist bat.

Imran improved his batting after that, but he was no ATG bowler by then.

Hadlee better bowler + better fielder
Imran slightly better bat than hadlee.

Imran's batting is super overrated 😴
 

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