England (and Wales) gloom, doom and recriminations thread

[wpdavid]

Not an England fan but I think this is second after Adelaide. Looking back on it you see a weak England lineup on a 5th day Adelaide pitch against Warne and McGrath and it's kinda like, OK, **** happens. But that's not how it was at the time. It was the most hyped Ashes series of my lifetime by miles. Most English fans and pundits really felt like they were going to give it a good go.

The mood coming into this series wasn't like that at all, I've never seen them so pessimistic. The bookies had England as comfortable favourites, but most of the English pundits were predicting an India series win, which is a very rare combination. It's harder for a loss to be properly deflating in those circumstances.

Also tbf it's not the Ashes.

I know there's a big element of subjectivity here, but I think you and I are talking about two slightly different things. Adelaide hurt in a way that yesterday never could; one of those days when you wake up, hear the score, and want to go back to bed for the rest of the week. And that involves the whole psychological impact of 1989-2003 coming back again when England were supposed to be competitive in these contests. It's like Nick Hornby wrote in 'Hi Fidelity' about needing to get me years ago to really screw me up, so yesterday's abomination doesn't carry the same emotional impact for people of my generation. However, was Adelaide Day 5 actually a worse performance than yesterday? I would suggest not because it was Warne on a fifth day pitch, and those are indeed circumstances when **** can very easily happen.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

It's quite common to call a **** performance the worst ever when it's just happened, but I've seen nothing mentioned so far that was worse. Certainly not Adelaide against a great side in their own back yard. Had we knocked over the tail yesterday and been set 190 and still lost it would have been grim, but that bowling performance was incomparable to anything.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Not an England fan but I think this is second after Adelaide. Looking back on it you see a weak England lineup on a 5th day Adelaide pitch

I don't. That was a pretty solid England side, batting-wise at least, that just came up against a different league. Collingwood and Pietersen had a 300 run partnership in the same game. You can't compare Strauss/Cook/Bell/C'wood/KP/Flintoff to this team.

 

[Furball]

Not an England fan but I think this is second after Adelaide. Looking back on it you see a weak England lineup on a 5th day Adelaide pitch against Warne and McGrath and it's kinda like, OK, **** happens. But that's not how it was at the time. It was the most hyped Ashes series of my lifetime by miles. Most English fans and pundits really felt like they were going to give it a good go.

The mood coming into this series wasn't like that at all, I've never seen them so pessimistic. The bookies had England as comfortable favourites, but most of the English pundits were predicting an India series win, which is a very rare combination. It's harder for a loss to be properly deflating in those circumstances.

Also tbf it's not the Ashes.

Yeah Adelaide was the pits. The hype for the series was huge, then England proceeded to get absolutely smashed at the Gabba, as is tradition. Granted, Adelaide back in the day was an absolute road, but England recovered with a good batting performance including massive hundreds from KP and Collingwood and were in a position end of day 4 where a winning draw looks absolutely nailed on and momentum can be carried to Perth. Arguably England should have been in a position to ram home a win and level the series if Giles doesn't drop Ponting, but a draw is still a decent recovery from being utterly destroyed in Brisbane.

To go from that to somehow contriving to lose the Test was utterly ridiculous, and not only that, but you knew as soon as the match was lost that Glenn McGrath's traditional 5-0 prediction was actually going to come true.

It's also why Adelaide 2011 is my favourite England win of all time, because I feel like it helped exorcise those ghosts from 4 years previous, especially as there were 6 (IIRC) players who played in both matches.

 

[Furball]

I don't. That was a pretty solid England side, batting-wise at least, that just came up against a different league. Collingwood and Pietersen had a 300 run partnership in the same game. You can't compare Strauss/Cook/Bell/C'wood/KP/Flintoff to this team.

Yeah it's the same top order plus Trott that is the foundation of the side which comes to Australia 4 years later and scores about a million runs that would go on to be the number 1 ranked side in the world.

 

[Furball]

I know there's a big element of subjectivity here, but I think you and I are talking about two slightly different things. Adelaide hurt in a way that yesterday never could; one of those days when you wake up, hear the score, and want to go back to bed for the rest of the week. And that involves the whole psychological impact of 1989-2003 coming back again when England were supposed to be competitive in these contests. It's like Nick Hornby wrote in 'Hi Fidelity' about needing to get me years ago to really screw me up, so yesterday's abomination doesn't carry the same emotional impact for people of my generation. However, was Adelaide Day 5 actually a worse performance than yesterday? I would suggest not because it was Warne on a fifth day pitch, and those are indeed circumstances when **** can very easily happen.

Adelaide was an absolute road though, no team should have been collapsing on that pitch. Warne was also pretty done as a bowler by 2006/07, his aura basically sparked a collapse.

 

[Furball]

The UAE debacle will always be right up there for me.

Christ, that first morning where the top order completely fell apart against Ajmal on a pitch that was doing absolutely nothing really set the tone for that series.

James Anderson of all people probably handled Ajmal the best out of England's batsmen because he was about the only player who was at least getting decisively forward or back to the ball. The top order just spent the entire tour with their feet in cement dribbling catches to the keeper or getting themselves out lbw.

 

[wpdavid]

Christ, that first morning where the top order completely fell apart against Ajmal on a pitch that was doing absolutely nothing really set the tone for that series.

James Anderson of all people probably handled Ajmal the best out of England's batsmen because he was about the only player who was at least getting decisively forward or back to the ball. The top order just spent the entire tour with their feet in cement dribbling catches to the keeper or getting themselves out lbw.

Yup. Heaven forbid they actually thought about how to play the bowling.

 

[GIMH]

Johnson was phenomenal so can probably make some allowances but day 3 at Adelaide in 2013 still has me waking up in a cold sweat

 

[Furball]

Johnson was phenomenal so can probably make some allowances but day 3 at Adelaide in 2013 still has me waking up in a cold sweat

I didn't watch a huge amount of that series as I'd just changed jobs. I remember watching England's first innings at the Gabba suddenly fall apart in the face of Johnson and got instant 2006 vibes.

 

[wpdavid]

That was my observation too (about Pope). My initial thought was that his confidence was shattered by the series in India, but that doesn't totally follow as he scored a couple of big hundreds in the county championship earlier in the season.

And gone for zero today. There really shouldn't any talk at all of bringing Pope back into the test side until he's remembered which end of his bat to use. Which probably guarantees that he'll be walking out at number 3 next week.

 

[Chubb]

In England’s defence, and not wanting to start a debate, but the UAE Pakistan series they were beaten by Ajmal, who was shortly banned for throwing. And if I recall correctly didn’t he, or another Pakistan player, get done for PEDs soon afterwards?

 

[TheJediBrah]

In England’s defence, and not wanting to start a debate, but the UAE Pakistan series they were beaten by Ajmal, who was shorty banned for throwing, and if I recall correctly didn’t he, or another Pakistan player, get done for PEDs afterwards?

I guess but as far as cheating goes that is pretty mild. Nothing compared to murray mints

 

[Starfighter]

James Anderson of all people probably handled Ajmal the best out of England's batsmen because he was about the only player who was at least getting decisively forward or back to the ball. The top order just spent the entire tour with their feet in cement dribbling catches to the keeper or getting themselves out lbw.

Reminds of our top order last summer.

 

[Uppercut]

In England’s defence, and not wanting to start a debate, but the UAE Pakistan series they were beaten by Ajmal, who was shorty banned for throwing, and if I recall correctly didn’t he, or another Pakistan player, get done for PEDs afterwards?

It was the series where he first introduced the ‘teesra’, a crafty and innovative delivery where he abandoned his bowling action mid-way through and just had a shy at the stumps instead.

 

[Starfighter]

It was the series where he first introduced the ‘teesra’, a crafty and innovative delivery where he abandoned his bowling action mid-way through and just had a shy at the stumps instead.

I remember watching videos of that overlaid with commentary about Bob Willis' comments and how he's racist etc. It was so shockingly blatant. At that time people were arguing that for spin bowling to survive they'd need to legalise 30° of bend and **** like that. The two highest wicket takers since Ajmal was banned have been finger spinners, and the doosra seems to be dead and buried.

 

[honestbharani]

Saqlain originally introduced the "teesra" in the 2004 series against England. Unfortunately, no one could figure out what it was as the ball ended up being smashed to the stands by Sehwag.

 

[Furball]

It was the series where he first introduced the ‘teesra’, a crafty and innovative delivery where he abandoned his bowling action mid-way through and just had a shy at the stumps instead.

Haha how the **** he got away with that I'll never know.

 

[Uppercut]

I remember watching videos of that overlaid with commentary about Bob Willis' comments and how he's racist etc. It was so shockingly blatant. At that time people were arguing that for spin bowling to survive they'd need to legalise 30° of bend and **** like that. The two highest wicket takers since Ajmal was banned have been finger spinners, and the doosra seems to be dead and buried.

Does Ashwin not bowl a doosra any more?

 

[Starfighter]

Does Ashwin not bowl a doosra any more?

Don't think he ever did, except maybe as an experiment. When he wants one to go the other way he uses the Iverson ball.