England (and Wales) gloom, doom and recriminations thread

[Jack1]

Getting bowled out in 2 sessions is certainly a disaster. More so when India had just had an unbroken stand of 89 for the 9th wicket. India even missed chances (including a wicket off a no ball). Time to bounce back though, 5 match series.

1. Burns
2. Hameed
3. Ballance (if available)

Woakes (if fit) in for Curran (otherwise Overton in for Curran). Overton for Wood, if Wood is injured (Mahmood next back up after Overton). Hameed now averages under 16 at number 3 in FC, he has to open (where he recently hit a ton against the touring Indians) - and can't be dropped after one test - he has to be given the rest of the series now to see if he can perform. Sibley is averaging under 20 in his last 11 tests, not logical to keep him in the side at this point - In my opinion Silverwood and Root inexcusably dug the team a massive hole by keeping Sibley at 2 and batting Hameed at 3 in this game.

 

[SteveNZ]

No problem mate, you're dead right. The other part of the gloom, doom and recriminations is how the heck have we ended up with a FC system where these guys are widely regarded as being as good as we're going to get? Because you won't find many of us naming any viable alternatives at any point this season.

So there's nothing coming down the pipeline, either? That's disappointing.

I don't profess to know much about the county scene these days, but I hope it's not a sign of the times and the lure of T20, the Hundred, IPL etc that is turning English batsmen off wanting to be Test-class. I've heard criticisms about the Dukes ball, the two-tier championship system, etc, but whatever it is some part of me hopes there's a bright future somewhere. Certainly the Ashes are going to be catastrophic if England wheel out a batting line-up like this one every time

 

[wpdavid]

Why he took 3-130 odd, and scored 40 runs. In the end the lack of left-handers is an hindrance.

Still think you should give your best spinner a go, actually if Woakes is back, don't see Cove playing, mind you as long as they get rid of Sam bloody Curran I'll be happy.

Fair enough, and tbh I mentioned Moeen without bothering to check his figures. I was just going on that two-wicket spell last night.

 

[SteveNZ]

I think that was what we were shocked by our bowling has generally been fine, but I think the optimism we'd score over 180 was a bit unfounded. If Root didn't get about half of them, wasn't going to happen.

Think we are all aware how poor we are as a batting unit, and without Woakes and stokes to bail us out we are demonstrably worse.

Yeah, fair enough.

It's not exclusively an England problem, I think we're a lot better nowadays but I remember some very average batsmen (Harbajan, Jerome Taylor, too many others to name) who scored runs down the order because rather than continue to do what we'd done, we went into bouncer/yorker mode in the belief that bombing them out would work. That was obviously made worse because England's egos got in the way and forgot that knocking someone's poles over is a better way of exacting revenge than hitting them is.

 

[Jack1]

Fair enough, and tbh I mentioned Moeen without bothering to check his figures. I was just going on that two-wicket spell last night.

He had some chances missed off his bowling. The raw stats don't tell everything. Jadeja was wicketless in the game.

 

[Pothas]

No problem mate, you're dead right. The other part of the gloom, doom and recriminations is how the heck have we ended up with a FC system where these guys are widely regarded as being as good as we're going to get? Because you won't find many of us naming any viable alternatives at any point this season.

We genuinely need a bad home loss for things to change. It could have happened in 2019 if it had not been for Stokes and certainly would this time without Root. Does not mean I am not desperate for them to turn this series around.

 

[SteveNZ]

It's also quite incredible that England continue picking someone like Curran who isn't Test class in either discipline. Suppose that's in part dictated by the ineptitude of the top order batsmen, but no one's winning anything against major nations with a guy at 8 who averages 25 with the bat and isn't penetrative with the ball.

 

[Pothas]

Hameed
Burns
Vince

Nothing can go wrong...

 

[GIMH]

Hameed
Burns
Vince

Nothing can go wrong...

Prefer mine but I’ll take it

 

[grecian]

He had some chances missed off his bowling. The raw stats don't tell everything. Jadeja was wicketless in the game.

Tbh he didn't have a bad game, but I still feel the guy who has been in every squad and is the best spinner shouldn't be overlooked.

and as I say the lack of left-handers to bowl at isn't great.

Yet I suppose he was probably in the top 5 performers for us, so many more to be dropped first I suppose

Jadeja has been pretty disappointing TBH, but when you have fast bowlers like India it doesn't matter much I suppose.

 

[grecian]

It's also quite incredible that England continue picking someone like Curran who isn't Test class in either discipline. Suppose that's in part dictated by the ineptitude of the top order batsmen, but no one's winning anything against major nations with a guy at 8 who averages 25 with the bat and isn't penetrative with the ball.

He kept on bizarrely taking wickets for awhile, but yeah I don't really know how. Think they've finally found him out.

 

[StephenZA]

I don’t think it’s quite so bad for England batting. No worse than most other teams right now. Between stokes rest and Pope injury lost 2 very good players. Not many batting lineups in Test cricket have more than three really good batsmen right now. And few have replacements just sitting on side line.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah but even with Stokes and Pope there, Root is still coming out at 20-2 (and that’s being optimistic), and therefore the middle order is always up against it.

It’s Test Cricket, it’s not meant to be easy, but just once in a while it’d be nice for Root to get more than an hour where he’s not got to be switched on. He was on the field for all but what, 2-3 hours of this match?

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

3. Ballance (if available)

No way. The horror of Ballance still haunts me.

 

[Uppercut]

I’m not sure their batting is that much worse than it has been in previous years. Root being in this form is worth a lot.

The big difference this summer is the bowling. Am I right that they’ve yet to take 20 wickets in 4 tests? That would have been unthinkable for most of the past 10-15 years.

 

[Bijed]

No way. The horror of Ballance still haunts me.

From NZ 2015 onwards, Ballance was mostly dreadful, but in fairness to the guy, he's still contributed more than most English batsmen to debut since Root (says more about the others than him, but still).

He kept on bizarrely taking wickets for awhile, but yeah I don't really know how. Think they've finally found him out.

In a way I'm glad Curran had such a shocker with the bat. Since his first few matches, he's more or less regressed to the sort of 'all-rounder' England used to pick in the 90s/early 2000s and should probably go for the time being

 

[Uppercut]

I mean the batting today was bad, but you have to be fair and look at what they were up against. India’s best pace attack ever with all four of them bowling close to their best. None of them threw it away. It wasn’t like the first 2019 Ashes test where they had a day to bat out and very obviously didn’t have the bottle for it, Roy out bowled trying to tonk the spinner and everyone else wafting at Cummins so they wouldn’t have to face him. At least today they made India work for it.

OTOH you look at what the English bowlers were up against today and, well…

 

[Bahnz]

I honestly don't know if I've ever seen a weaker England batting lineup (Root excepted obvz) even in 1999. There's not a player in there that you'd back to average 35+ long term, let alone 40. Stoakes coming back will obviously help but I'm not sure what else can be done in the near term. I personally would've stuck with Pope for all his flaws as he at least looks like he's got the potential to offer a bit more.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Is Bedingham looking to qualify?

I'm only half joking, but, as he's listed as an overseas pro for Durham this year I'm guessing he's not a passport holder.

I dunno. It's hard to think of anything positive to say about the top order. Sibley has to be gone now, surely? He got a good one today, for sure, but twice this series he's just spooned dollies up to midwicket. He's too limited at this level and I honestly don't think he's worth persisting with any longer.

Hameed looks a bit short of the requisite quality too. Given the length of rope Sibley's had it would be a bit unjust to chop him after one test though. Move him up to open and pray.

I'd probably go back to Malan at three. I'm far from convinced by him, but he looks less obviously not test quality than our other options. Clarke is a little too rape adjacent and, if Hain couldn't get a go in our third XI ODI averaging over 50 in List A, he's not getting a test gig averaging ~35 in FC.

Maybe Pope for Bairstow, but that does have a wee bit of rearranging the deckchairs after hitting the iceberg feel. Jonny did get a 50 in the first dig too.

Hope Woakes is fit. He comes in for SCurran.

So we're looking at:

Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root*
Pope/Bairstow
Buttler+
Ali
Woakes
Robinson
Wood
Anderson

 

[Pup Clarke]

Bairstow playing >70 tests (and being endlessly recalled) is symptomatic of this England side and their ethos. No long-term strategy and thinking that because you have done very well in white ball cricket means you can automatically translate this across to test cricket. It's a different skillset