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Who is a better batsman Martyn or Chanderpaul?

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Mister Wright said:
And obviously you'd rate Martyn in the top 10 also? Why then did you say that Martyn is better than Chanderpaul by "a fair margain"?
A fair margin meaning that there's no real debate about if for me. If you were to ask who out of say Dravid and Ponting was better, it would be a close thing. Lara and Tendulkar in the 90s is the same deal. Sehwag and Hayden... and so on. Martyn is comfortably better than Chanderpaul, in my mind, even though Chanderpaul is a very, very good player.
 

C_C

International Captain
umm
lara tendulkar in the 90s is not a close thing.
Its Tendy by a fair margin- even Lara himself said so.

On another note, i really dont like the notion of rating players on form and who's running hot and who's running cold.
As the saying goes, form is temporary but class is permanent.....
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
umm
lara tendulkar in the 90s is not a close thing.
Its Tendy by a fair margin- even Lara himself said so.

On another note, i really dont like the notion of rating players on form and who's running hot and who's running cold.
As the saying goes, form is temporary but class is permanent.....
I disagree. I think Lara is better than Tendulkar, and was in the 90s as well, and we've had this debate before. I don't think there's a big gap, though.
 

roseboy64

Cricket Web Content Updater
FaaipDeOiad said:
A fair margin meaning that there's no real debate about if for me. If you were to ask who out of say Dravid and Ponting was better, it would be a close thing. Lara and Tendulkar in the 90s is the same deal. Sehwag and Hayden... and so on. Martyn is comfortably better than Chanderpaul, in my mind, even though Chanderpaul is a very, very good player.
So you're saying that Martyn is a great player then? He's up there with the likes of Lara and Bradman is he?
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
FaaipDeOiad said:
A fair margin meaning that there's no real debate about if for me. If you were to ask who out of say Dravid and Ponting was better, it would be a close thing. Lara and Tendulkar in the 90s is the same deal. Sehwag and Hayden... and so on. Martyn is comfortably better than Chanderpaul, in my mind, even though Chanderpaul is a very, very good player.
Ok then, that makes enough sense. I understand what you mean now.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
roseboy64 said:
So you're saying that Martyn is a great player then? He's up there with the likes of Lara and Bradman is he?
Eh?

No, he's not up there with the likes of "Lara and Bradman" in terms of all-time greatness status, but among current batsmen in the world over the last couple of years he's in the top 5 or so along with Dravid, Ponting, Lara and Kallis.
 

C_C

International Captain
I disagree. I think Lara is better than Tendulkar, and was in the 90s as well, and we've had this debate before. I don't think there's a big gap, though.
End of 99- Lara averaged tad over 50, Tendy was around 57 or so, Tendy never having failed against OZ, Lara having his only success(99) in over half a decade...... tendy doing better against aus,nz, pak, rsa, sl, england and about 10 pts ahead on away average.
Tendy far and away better really.
Everybody said so - Wisden, the bowlers around the world and Lara himself, not to mention, the stats book.
This was the era when Lara had a glaring weakness outside the offstump (to the delivery that swung away a tad) and practically every tom, **** and harry were getting him cheaply. Tendy looked invincible and dominated attack after attack, scoring runs at a stupendous rate and composure.

Lara has closed the gap in recent times but around Dec. 31st 1999, there was no question as to who was superior.
 
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FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
End of 99- Lara averaged tad over 50, Tendy was around 57 or so, Tendy never having failed against OZ, Lara having his only success(99) in over half a decade...... tendy doing better against aus,nz, pak, rsa, sl, england and about 10 pts ahead on away average.
Tendy far and away better really.
Everybody said so - Wisden, the bowlers around the world and Lara himself, not to mention, the stats book.
This was the era when Lara had a glaring weakness outside the offstump (to the delivery that swung away a tad) and practically every tom, **** and harry were getting him cheaply. Tendy looked invincible and dominated attack after attack, scoring runs at a stupendous rate and composure.

Lara has closed the gap in recent times but around Dec. 31st 1999, there was no question as to who was superior.
And at the end of 1995 mid-way through the decade Lara averaged 60.96 and Tendulkar 51.73. The point is that they are different ages, and Tendulkar was due for a slump as well (read: now), and you have to compare their careers as a whole. Yes, Lara was poorer than Tendulkar in the second half of the 90s, and far better in the first, that really neither here nor there. Lara in my mind has the genius ability to decimate any attack, his weakness outside the off-stump is no worse than Tendulkar's weakness to the one that straightens on him and gets him trapped in front so often (see: Gillespie, Jason), and has the ability to play match-winning knocks and turn games to the West Indies through his brilliance alone. He has in fact single-handedly kept them afloat over the last decade.
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
FaaipDeOiad said:
And at the end of 1995 mid-way through the decade Lara averaged 60.96 and Tendulkar 51.73. The point is that they are different ages, and Tendulkar was due for a slump as well (read: now), and you have to compare their careers as a whole. Yes, Lara was poorer than Tendulkar in the second half of the 90s, and far better in the first, that really neither here nor there. Lara in my mind has the genius ability to decimate any attack, his weakness outside the off-stump is no worse than Tendulkar's weakness to the one that straightens on him and gets him trapped in front so often (see: Gillespie, Jason), and has the ability to play match-winning knocks and turn games to the West Indies through his brilliance alone. He has in fact single-handedly kept them afloat over the last decade.
Got to agree with you there.
 

C_C

International Captain
And at the end of 1995 mid-way through the decade Lara averaged 60.96 and Tendulkar 51.73. The point is that they are different ages, and Tendulkar was due for a slump as well (read: now), and you have to compare their careers as a whole. Yes, Lara was poorer than Tendulkar in the second half of the 90s, and far better in the first, that really neither here nor there.
I am talking overall- ie the whole decade, the whole nine yards.
If you wanna go year-by-year through the 90s, out of the 9 years they've both played(Lara missed 1991), Tendy has averaged more than Lara in 7 years while Lara has averaged more than Tendy in only 2- 94 and 95.
Obviously the gap between Tendy and Lara was far more in the late 90s than it was between lara and tendy in the early 90s- otherwise, Tendy couldnt have finished with superior stats against EVERY SINGLE OPPOSITION they played against and 7 pts ahead on the average. Its like first set is 6-4 to Lara, second set is 6-1 to Tendy.

Lara in my mind has the genius ability to decimate any attack, his weakness outside the off-stump is no worse than Tendulkar's weakness to the one that straightens on him and gets him trapped in front so often (see: Gillespie, Jason), and has the ability to play match-winning knocks and turn games to the West Indies through his brilliance alone. He has in fact single-handedly kept them afloat over the last decade.
Lara has the ability to score massively more than anybody else on this planet- or anybody ever barring Bradman.
That is the single biggest reason for his greatness.
However, there are several other categories where Lara falls short of Tendulkar.
One is consistency.
The other is scoring against quality attacks - both Lara and Tendy have scored heavily against the aussies ( when they had their primier bowlers) but Tendy has scored better against quality attacks like RSA or PAK in the 90s.
Another one, is their performance in the opposition's backyard, when the advantage shifts away from them- tendy outstrips Lara handily in that category.

Overall career-wise, Lara has picked up in the last 3 years or so, when the bowling quality has died down and Tendy has slowed.
Overall career-comparisons, its close but i will give the cigar to Tendy.
But when you talk about how they stood contrasting to each other at the end of the 1990s, there is simply no debate. Tendy was head and shoulders above.
Like i said, he had a superior record against EVERY SINGLE opposition- AUS, ENG, NZ,PAK, RSA, SL.
He had a superior away average by about 10 points.
He had a superior overall record by some distance.

As per tendy's weakness to the one that straightens on him- that is a chink in his armour but nowhere as glaring as Lara's to the ball bowled just short of a length outside offstump and moving away a tad.
McGrath got him a bajillion times with that, so did Fleming, so did Pollock and so did Donald and every tom **** and harry bowler had lara at sea with that delivery.
Back then, Lara was dodgy against spin, clueless against Akram and overall inferior.
It was so obvious that Lara was inferior to Tendy at the end of 90s that lara himself admitted that he wasnt good enough.
That is game, set and match to Tendy- the opposition has conceded.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Neil Pickup said:
All hail Daren Ganga, right?

Rubbish post.
I dont think you blokes got me, Craig said that he would give Chanderpaul the edge over Martyn because he likes Chanderpaul's technique, i'm not judging neither of them on their techniques at all, it think the way i said it came across to you the wrong way. :happy:
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
FaaipDeOiad said:
And at the end of 1995 mid-way through the decade Lara averaged 60.96 and Tendulkar 51.73. The point is that they are different ages, and Tendulkar was due for a slump as well (read: now), and you have to compare their careers as a whole. Yes, Lara was poorer than Tendulkar in the second half of the 90s, and far better in the first, that really neither here nor there. Lara in my mind has the genius ability to decimate any attack, his weakness outside the off-stump is no worse than Tendulkar's weakness to the one that straightens on him and gets him trapped in front so often (see: Gillespie, Jason), and has the ability to play match-winning knocks and turn games to the West Indies through his brilliance alone. He has in fact single-handedly kept them afloat over the last decade.
cant disagree with u here faaip.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Jesus another Lara/Tendulkar debate. C_C whenever someone mentions Tendulkar and Lara together, don't just pounce immediately like someone has sinned. Its frickin' common knowledge that those two are considered the two best of the 90s (along with Steve Waugh) and so it makes sense that people will mention those 2 names together. You think Sachin is better comfortably? Great, but not everyone else does and really, there is no reason for everyone too.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Jono said:
Jesus another Lara/Tendulkar debate. C_C whenever someone mentions Tendulkar and Lara together, don't just pounce immediately like someone has sinned. Its frickin' common knowledge that those two are considered the two best of the 90s (along with Steve Waugh) and so it makes sense that people will mention those 2 names together. You think Sachin is better comfortably? Great, but not everyone else does and really, there is no reason for everyone too.
Well said.


And as far as Martyn/Chanders is concerned, I would take Chanders because he has been around and has made runs against quality attacks in difficult times for a long period of time. I think Martyn has been playing tests only after mid 2001 after his earlier stint in test cricket. And it is no secret that bowling standards have declined from mid 90s to the early 2000s. A bit unfair on Martyn, because he is my most favourite Aussie batter after Gilly, but I just feel it would be even more unfair to not give Chanders his due. Both are very close, IMO, but since Chanders has been doing it for a longer while than Martyn, I just think he is better. But I don't mind the guys rating Martyn ahead of Chanders here. I think that is a fair argument too.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
Last 35 Tests:

Chanderpaul
2981 runs
Avge: 60.83
12 hundreds
11 fifties
Avge v teams other than Zim/Ban: 64.98

Martyn
2651 runs
Avge: 50.98
9 hundreds
12 fifties
Avge v teams other than Zim/Ban: 51.32

Last 10 Tests:

Chanderpaul
1160 runs
Avge: 82.85
4 hundreds
4 fifties
Avge w/o NOs: 64.44

Martyn
894 runs
Avge: 74.50
4 hundreds
4 fifties
Avge w/o NOs: 63.86
So what you believe just there proves your point that Chanderpaul is better?
 

Craig

World Traveller
aussie said:
Haha so your saying you are going for a batsman who has one of the worst techniques in the world, mind it is very effective overa batsman who is arguably the most technically correct batsman in world cricket. :laugh:
So?

He is a gritty and tough batsman who gets runs when it is counted. Mike Proctor had a terrible bowling action but it still worked for him?
 

Craig

World Traveller
aussie said:
I dont think you blokes got me, Craig said that he would give Chanderpaul the edge over Martyn because he likes Chanderpaul's technique, i'm not judging neither of them on their techniques at all, it think the way i said it came across to you the wrong way. :happy:
Sorry but did I mention his technique?

I said I like his style, that doesn't mean technique, it could mean that I like it how he bats.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
honestbharani said:
Well said.


And as far as Martyn/Chanders is concerned, I would take Chanders because he has been around and has made runs against quality attacks in difficult times for a long period of time. I think Martyn has been playing tests only after mid 2001 after his earlier stint in test cricket. And it is no secret that bowling standards have declined from mid 90s to the early 2000s. A bit unfair on Martyn, because he is my most favourite Aussie batter after Gilly, but I just feel it would be even more unfair to not give Chanders his due. Both are very close, IMO, but since Chanders has been doing it for a longer while than Martyn, I just think he is better. But I don't mind the guys rating Martyn ahead of Chanders here. I think that is a fair argument too.
Actually I never thought of that, very good post. I'd still rate Martyn higher probably, but that is a very interesting point you make. Definitely adds to the argument for Chanderpaul.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The other is scoring against quality attacks - both Lara and Tendy have scored heavily against the aussies ( when they had their primier bowlers) but Tendy has scored better against quality attacks like RSA or PAK in the 90s.
From memory, Sachin's average against RSA in the 90's was around 30-odd as Donald and Pollock had his measure a bit. Even now, it's around 37.

http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?...edhigh=;csearch=;submit=1;.cgifields=viewtype

This in no significant way really diminishes his genius but he certainly had his problems playing Donald and Pollock (geez, who didn't?!?!).
 

age_master

Hall of Fame Member
hmm interesting point, martyn played 7 tests first time round i think, that would make his average for his current time in the Australian team mid 50's no doubt.
 

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