***Official*** West Indies in New Zealand

[ohtani's jacket]

Vettori has been a good player for his country and that's all that really matters. His average is no different from Stephen Fleming, who would've preferred career numbers closer to Martin Crowe than contemporaries like Craig McMillan. Nevertheless, Fleming has made runs and Vettori taken wickets & together they've been a staple of a successful NZ side. Arguably the most successful NZ side.

Their averages might not be world class, but NZ has rarely produced world class players. By our country's standards, they're very good players. Within a team context, they're often great players. Besides, we've seen a number of world class players come to NZ and disappoint over the years.

 

[Goughy]

Vettori has been a good player for his country and that's all that really matters.

Their averages might not be world class, but NZ has rarely produced world class players. By our country's standards, they're very good players. Within a team context, they're often great players.

Agree completely. I actually like Vettori but it drives me crazy that some people beleive him to be something that he is not. He is a good player rather than a great player.

Very fair and balanced post.

 

[sirjeremy11]

Agree completely. I actually like Vettori but it drives me crazy that some people beleive him to be something that he is not. He is a good player rather than a great player.

Very fair and balanced post.

I believe him to be a good player and not a great player. Just annoys me that people consistently bag him when he is a good player!

Anyhow, third test team announced in an hour. Hope they pick no Marshalls.

 

[Dick Rockett]

Those 4 games skew his average so much it makes the "overall" average look far far better than it should be.

And for the record, those figures include games vs Australia, when he hardly did well.

Statistics can prove anything. If you want to look at his record against Australia, how about his overall career average against them - 34.94. Not legend status, but against the best in the world, and half the time on pacey Aussie pitches, that's not bad. One must also take into consideration his usage as a stock bowler whose main purpose was to keep the run rate down.

Everyone has good and bad patches, and to focus on supposedly poor recent form is unfair. What would you have to say if he hadn't taken all those wickets against Bangladesh?

Interesting stat - his career average hasn't been markedly lowered by playing Zimbabwe, he averages 30.65 against them.

 

[Dick Rockett]

He is a good player rather than a great player.

I don't think anyone but the craziest of members on here has ever claimed he is a great player.

 

[sirjeremy11]

Statistics can prove anything. If you want to look at his record against Australia, how about his overall career average against them - 34.94. Not legend status, but against the best in the world, and half the time on pacey Aussie pitches, that's not bad. One must also take into consideration his usage as a stock bowler whose main purpose was to keep the run rate down.

Everyone has good and bad patches, and to focus on supposedly poor recent form is unfair. What would you have to say if he hadn't taken all those wickets against Bangladesh?

Interesting stat - his career average hasn't been markedly lowered by playing Zimbabwe, he averages 30.65 against them.

Yeah. His Zim avgs are inflated by the 97/98 tour there when his back was going.

Good point about Bangladesh! I would love to see this argument if he had similar stats as he does now, but not got any wickets against Bangladesh, maybe people would say he was a rubbish bowler because he couldn't get any wickets against a rubbish team.

 

[Dick Rockett]

...people would say he was a rubbish bowler because he couldn't get any wickets against a rubbish team.

Instead, people are claiming he's rubbish because he can get wickets against a rubbish team.

 

[jadeey]

Following the format I learnt in debating back at school of coming up with a solution instead of just announcing there is a problem. If Vettori is so crap (which I don't believe he is) who should he be replaced with? There is no other spinner in NZ that is better at this point in time. I REALLY don't believe we have enough good, reliable seamers to get rid of Vettori and only play with a seam attack.

 

[sirjeremy11]

Instead, people are claiming he's rubbish because he can get wickets against a rubbish team.

Exactly! Sort of like saying they should drop the whole Bangladesh team because they are not good enough. Who do you replace them with?

 

[James]

I would question those of you who are saying Vettori is crap. When was the last time you actually saw him bowl, or is your whole argument on statistics alone?

He may not turn the ball a lot but he gets good flight and is difficult to get away, and it's hardly his fault, that he did well against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

Vettori seems to always be respected by the opposition too. They just try to see him off, and that's exactly what Australia, Sri Lanka and now the West Indies are doing. If he was a rubbish bowler, surely the opposition would target him as a weak link to our attack?

 

[Dick Rockett]

Following the format I learnt in debating back at school of coming up with a solution instead of just announcing there is a problem.

A pity most people don't understand that concept. You should hear my dad sometimes - "The government's crap, Fleming can't bat", etc, etc.

"So what's should we do instead dad?"

"I don't know, it's not my problem".

*sigh*

 

[Dick Rockett]

Vettori seems to always be respected by the opposition too. They just try to see him off, and that's exactly what Australia, Sri Lanka and now the West Indies are doing. If he was a rubbish bowler, surely the opposition would target him as a weak link to our attack?

And despite that he has outstanding records against the latter two teams, and a good one against the former. I think when he retires his record will show he was more than "the pick of a poor bunch".

 

[sirjeremy11]

Same team for the third test. Bond back in the squad. May not play due to broken hair follicle though.

 

[Dick Rockett]

Well, one's hair does seriously affect one's rhythm...

 

[sirjeremy11]

Well, one's hair does seriously affect one's rhythm...

Look at Jason Gillespie...

 

[marc71178]

So you're saying he's too good when playing against poor opposition? Surely Warne when playing the same opposition would also expect to have an opportunity to 'skew his average'? It's the same with every bowler around the world - you lower your bowling stats against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

You what?

This is 4 games out of 17 that make a rubbish average into a respectable one.

Comparing him to Warne is ridiculous when you bear in mind he's played a grand total of 1 game against those 2 sides, back in 1999 when they weren't anywhere near the same level of rubbish.

 

[marc71178]

Everyone has good and bad patches, and to focus on supposedly poor recent form is unfair. What would you have to say if he hadn't taken all those wickets against Bangladesh?

If he hadn't taken them his record wouldn't be anywhere near the so-called good figure.

Interesting stat - his career average hasn't been markedly lowered by playing Zimbabwe, he averages 30.65 against them.

Yes, because that actually shows that when Zimbabawe weren't as bad as they are now, he struggled against them.

 

[sirjeremy11]

Yes, because that actually shows that when Zimbabawe weren't as bad as they are now, he struggled against them.

One of the tests against them he was beginning to succumbe to a stress fracture in his back. He got 1/79 in that one. I would also argue that while Zim were not as bad as they are now, Vettori was not as good as he is now.

 

[marc71178]

If he's so good now, how come his record against the non-minnows is so bad?

 

[Dick Rockett]

If he hadn't taken them his record wouldn't be anywhere near the so-called good figure.

You can apply that argument to every single bowler. You'll find that most players who have been around a while have better records against the minnows, and that if you remove those stats, their averages will worsen.

And once again, because you don't seem to understand: no-one here is claiming Daniel Vettori has a good average, nor a they claiming he's a great player. What we are saying though, is that he's vastly better than people such as yourself, marc, who essentially have no regard for him whatsoever.

Yes, because that actually shows that when Zimbabawe weren't as bad as they are now, he struggled against them.

So what does that prove? He has a very good record against better teams than Zimbabwe. Are you trying to tell us that every time Vettori gets wickets, that's because the opposition has magically gotten worse, just for the period they played against him?

Most players have a poor record against one or two teams they might be expected to perform better against.