***Official*** West Indies in New Zealand

[marc71178]

Why single out Vettori for criticism?

I'm not, just disputing the apparently great last 2 or 3 years that he's had.

 

[Loony BoB]

I'm not saying he's been great, I'm arguing against people who are saying he's crap.

 

[Retox]

Vettori is not a wicket taker. He just keeps it tight, The perfect guy at the other end while Bond is taking the wickets. I mean he hardly gets hit for over 40 in odis. He is the best spinner we have. Like england with Giles. Would You rather Vettori or Wiseman?

 

[Loony BoB]

He does well for a non-wicket taker then, considering he's soon-to-be second in the all-time NZ wicket taking stakes. His strike rate obviously isn't the best, but he's 17th in NZ history for test strike rates, so he's not doing too badly - relatively speaking of course.

 

[Natman20]

Vettori is a great ODI bowler end of story. He is overated at test level and is definately better than Giles though. I like the look of his test bowling though and does build up pressure and therefore getting wickets after a period of time and runs. He was all over Dinesh Ramdin the other day knowing exactly where to bowl it. Is Nathan Astle underated as a Test bowler? I loved watching him bowl and he always looked like taking a wicket. I look forward to him swinging the ball around in Napier.

 

[Loony BoB]

Astle is definitely underrated by the majority of people because, well, most people don't rate him at all. I posted something about it earlier in this thread, how his average with the ball is something like 26.5 for the past two or three years... you'd have to dig back for it though.

Of course, if he bowled regularly instead of just a few overs per game, I don't know how that might eventually affect his stats, possibly because batsmen might get used to him or something... dunno. Whatever he does right now, though, works, so I'm happy for him to be played for just few overs per game if it gets us a breakthrough each time.

 

[sirjeremy11]

From the Herald this morning "With the three-test tour to South Africa starting next month, Bracewell agreed that Marshall needed a hefty score he if wanted to face the Proteas in what would be an extremely testing examination".

OK?

So what is Bracewell going to do if he doesn't get a "hefty score"?

Blood someone in the 4th test against WI? Someone needs to tell him THERE ISN"T ONE!!!

 

[Dick Rockett]

Absolutely. Bracewell needs his head examined.

How is it fair to put Marshall into a position he's never batted in in his career, then tell him "oh, by the way, your job depends on this one game".

Then, in the next paragraph, he says that the experimental top three from this series may need a reshuffle for South Africa.

So basically, Bracewell is willing to potentially damage the career of a good player by making him do a job that he might not even be required for? This is hurting my brain

 

[sirjeremy11]

I used to think John Bracewell was great. Now I think he is loco. Did he do this to Gloucester?

 

[Loony BoB]

Vincent may be assured of an opening spot soon enough, then. I mean, there is Sinclair, but we all know (that is to say, Bracewell knows) that he's a middle order batsman (just like Marshall is an opener).

 

[Dick Rockett]

I had my doubts about Bracewell. Although Gloucester had tremendous success at the one day game, they weren't much chop at the 4-day version. Personally, I'd rather the coach of the NZ side was able to improve test performances.

As it is, he's always had a dogmatic streak to him. He'd rather carry on with a bad idea than admit he's wrong. We may have won this series, but he can hardly claim that our openers played any part in that.

 

[Retox]

I had my doubts about Bracewell. Although Gloucester had tremendous success at the one day game, they weren't much chop at the 4-day version. Personally, I'd rather the coach of the NZ side was able to improve test performances.

As it is, he's always had a dogmatic streak to him. He'd rather carry on with a bad idea than admit he's wrong. We may have won this series, but he can hardly claim that our openers played any part in that.

When was the last series our openers did?

For the love of god I hope sinclair doesn't get back into the team. He is great FC player but can't make the step up into tests.

 

[Dick Rockett]

When was the last series our openers did?

For the love of god I hope sinclair doesn't get back into the team. He is great FC player but can't make the step up into tests.

Just because we've always had poor openers doesn't mean we should persist with more poor openers.

I think Sinclair still has something to offer. He's in great form at the moment. Would also like to see Papps back in the team.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

My problem with Vettori is that the media make him out to be a strike bowler. They talk about him in the same bracket as Bond in terms of our wicket takers when the fact is that Vettori doesn't take many wickets. Fleming can't just throw him the ball and say 'I need a wicket' like he can with Bond.

Well, you can hardly criticise Vettori based on what the media say.

Vettori's a good all-round player -- he bowls well, fields well, bats well, captains and vice-captains. If I were doing a team sheet, he'd be right up there.

In the case of Dan Vettori, there's no need to be effacing or defensive. You can honestly say: "This is Dan Vettori. He's one of the best players we have. He's not as good as players from other countries, but he plays well for us."

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Just because we've always had poor openers doesn't mean we should persist with more poor openers.

How and Marshall should at least get another chance at Napier. It would've been worse if one of them had made a century, then the media would've truly overreacted. If either of them make a good score at Napier at least there's some build to it after their successful run chase at Wellington. I'd rather they crawl upwards than plummet.

 

[Retox]

Just because we've always had poor openers doesn't mean we should persist with more poor openers.

I think Sinclair still has something to offer. He's in great form at the moment. Would also like to see Papps back in the team.

Papps + How is the best opening pair we can get.

Sinclair has had lots of chances. Lets try andstick with the current team (Oram + Papps in for Marshall/Martin)

 

[sirjeremy11]

Have to agree I would love to see Papps and How given a shot, both reasonably gritty players. I say if Marshall wants to be an opener, he should go back to domestic cricket and become one.

 

[Dick Rockett]

Papps + How is the best opening pair we can get.

Sinclair has had lots of chances. Lets try andstick with the current team (Oram + Papps in for Marshall/Martin)

But has Sinclair had those chances after scoring as heavily as he has been recently? Where's the motivation for a player to put in all the hard work and get the results in first class play, then not be given higher honours?

Batsmen tend to get better as they get older. Have a look at Steve Waugh - after 50 tests his average was almost identical to Sinclair's current average. Imagine what we would have missed out on if he hadn't been persisted with.

Edit: even more interesting - after 25 tests (Sinclair's current tally), Waugh averaged only 31.73, and was yet to pass 100.

 

[Dick Rockett]

I say if Marshall wants to be an opener, he should go back to domestic cricket and become one.

I think it's Bracewell who wants Marshall to be an opener. Understandably Marshall will do anything to stay in the team, unfortunately being so acquiescent is having a negative impact on him.

 

[sirjeremy11]

I think it's Bracewell who wants Marshall to be an opener.

Well I certainly haven't found anyone who agrees with him.