*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Ikki]

Well then its about time OZ upgraded its laws to reflect some of the more sensetive nations ?
this most definately falls under the banner of 'hate crime/inciting hatred'.

If it was that big of a deal Sri Lankan management WOULD have complained. Considering there was nothing more to it...there is no justification for the laws to change. In fact this seems reminiscent to another occaision where certain laws were changed because of Murali ..or at least...he always seems to be on the grounds for some sort of change. I wonder when the agreeance and conformity will come for any law to be acknowledged. It seems everything is against Murali.

 

[C_C]

So then why do you get so much completely wrong?
Back up your claim that 100% of Australians over 50 are racist. Let's see some surveys, stats and analysis of variance.

Again- learn to read properly. I've already clarified on this issue and i DARE you to post the whole post where i apparently claimed what you are attributing to me.

How about some experience playing Cricket? Otherwise, unless you're actually a biomechanist I'll continue giving you the low regard you deserve.

Experience at playing cricket is irrelevant to knowing how the arm moves or what the rules are. And you dont have to give any regards to me. Just give regards to the professional opinion of several established biomechanists who are in congruence with what i say on this issue. But seems like you are more intent to wallow in your ignorance.

Well, either you're spending too much time on these boards or you're degree is for bunnies. A soft commerce degree I could believe, but not what I know as Engineering and science.

Speculations only make an **** outta yourself. I work tech support night shifts usually. I will leave the rest for your rather infertile mind to try and work out.

Oh, but I was speaking metaphorically...
...how about shallow and simplistic?

No, you were speaking outta ignorance. Metaphors need to be similies to be valid or at the very least, convey analogy. Shallowness and simplistic stuff is not analogous to nationalism, particularly the latter.

Bloody hell, with comebacks like that...[truekiwijoker grins from ear to ear]
Some real cutting edge stuff for physicists, analysing bowling actions. C'mon then, lets hear some Dr.s and Prof.s names.

You said newtonian mechanics. I commented on newtonian mechanics. Again, learn to read properly.

He has been tested after the ICC allowed bowlers to chuck and bowl Doosra's. It is absolutely absurd Murilitharans Doosra is released at almost head height, what a joke!

Biomechanists proved that almot every single bowler chucks. That includes Warney and McGrath and Hadlee too. Deal with it, for that is the truth.

I'll just remember what my old coaches told me about bowling.

There wouldn't be a dispicable act if he wasn't such a righteous whinging cretin in the first place. After all, other Cricketers have been subjected to banter, and it disappeared once they handled it. You can talk in principles all you want but the pragmatic reality is there.

Regardless of who or what your coach is, unless he is a biomechanist or learned in kinesiology, he knows f-all about human elbow movements and thus, knows f-all about chucking. Sorry to be blunt, but thats applicable to all cricket coaches.

Yes, telling those obscene jokes, I bet you mix in alot of different circles...

One man's poison is another one's potion.

 

[C_C]

You're going off on a tangent again. Take the two examples: Murali and Warne.

While the situation doesn't seem to be changing, one whinges while the other comes out on top. Whether you want to admit it, you cannot take out sledging out of this sport. Sports are about rivalry, it is a COMPETITION. As much as I'd like to, you cannot take racism out of sport totally and as exemplified by ONE man, who painted his face black in a racial gesture, there will always be an idiot out there. So unless the world becomes educated in the near future, this scenario will exist. If you're dreaming about a perfect world, then I'll let your slumber last, I do not wish to bring you to reality.

Which is...Warne takes it...and shoves it back down your throat. Murali can't take it and ends up with one of the worst one-day bowling performances ever.

WHy cant you take sledging out of this sport ? Was crowd sledging the players a part of the sport just 30-40 years ago in most parts of the world ? The answer is no. Perhaps people should learn a bit more about etiquette and perhaps such rougish behaviours should be actively discouraged, instead of passively encouraged by accepting it as 'normal' before we dismiss the feasability of removing prospect of spectators sledging the players?

As per reality- well with such an apologist and accepting view of racism and crowd abuse, its not hard to immagine why certain nations have come under scrutiny of late due to deplorable crowd behaviour towards players.
I suppose by your reasoning, since we will never take out murderers from the society, its about time we started shrugging it off too....
Whats so hard about the simple fact that if you do not condemn abuse, you are passively condoning it, by making it seem 'normal' ?

And regardless of whether it is gonna change or not, a person who doesnt condone uncouth and abusive behaviour will always be a far more upstanding person in my eyes than someone who shrugs it off and sends the message that it is 'to be expected and normal'.

 

[Ikki]

Agreed


Not that much of a minority relative to other nations it would seem....And i dont see why that assumption is being made, given OZ's history in this matter and how its a relatively oft-spoken thing in international circles.

Quit BS-ing yourself.

 

[C_C]

If it was that big of a deal Sri Lankan management WOULD have complained. Considering there was nothing more to it...there is no justification for the laws to change. In fact this seems reminiscent to another occaision where certain laws were changed because of Murali ..or at least...he always seems to be on the grounds for some sort of change. I wonder when the agreeance and conformity will come for any law to be acknowledged. It seems everything is against Murali.

Well the dignity shown by the SL management shouldnt be construed as it being no big deal.
The fact that such people can get away scot free in OZ ( doesnt matter if its a criminal or civil court) is troubling, as it shows a marked tolerance for intolerant behavour.

 

[social]

Truekiwi,

Murali is not a cheat.

He operates within the parameters of existing laws.

If you want to criticise anyone, criticise the officials that allowed him to bowl for years in clear breach of existing legislation or those that changed the laws.

C_C

dont comment on Aus - you've no idea.

As an example, you claim Aus is racist because we support a gov't that refuses to apologise to the Aboriginals.

You obviously have no idea why that is the case.

Simply put, apology = admission of guilt = liability for compensation.

 

[C_C]

Quit BS-ing yourself.

I would like to see some reasoning to suggest that it is less prevalent in OZ than in most other nations, given OZ's track record in these matters and the considerable flak it has taken in racism issues with nutters talking about banning Asian migrations, racism in OZ sports, systematic racism in OZ societies (as claimed by the UN), etc.

I have no way of knowing and neither shall i speculate on how many racist tossers exist in OZ, what % of the population they are and whether they are the majority or the minority. But it does seem that they are more numerous proportionately than most other countries...and i would like to see some reasoning/evidence to counter that, not just nationalistic spiel.

 

[Ikki]

Normalising deplorable behaviour isnt intelligent, it is barbaric. Tolerance of that which is intolerable causes its proliferation, not remission. That is the most basic fundamental concept you are missing. If everyone shrugged off rapists, you would have a lot more instances of rape. Spectators hurling abuse is not something to be justified or shrugged off as 'well its to be expected', for it encourages it ( by making it acceptable) rather than discourages it. Perhaps its me but i find passive encouragement of abusive behaviour to be highly barbaric.

Oh boy...rape and sledging go hand in hand I see.

As for your argument whether Truekiwijoker took your arguments out of context. Those racial comments were made before this Murali debacle. As usual, you look pretty dumb.

And FYI, my girlfriend is a therapist..i do get to spend a lotta time on her couch <CENSORED>.
Edit : well not really girlfriend......but...<CENSORED>

Boyfriend?

 

[C_C]

Oh boy...rape and sledging go hand in hand I see.

As for your argument whether Truekiwijoker took your arguments out of context. Those racial comments were made before this Murali debacle. As usual, you look pretty dumb.

What has those comments gotto do with Murali debacle ?
He took my comments out of context, simply because he started quoting me mid sentence, where i was illustrating the difference between two sentences. And like any illustrations of difference, if you omit the qualifying statement(s), it will seem like a contradiction... if someone chops off the sentence " see if you can spot the difference between these two sentences", the subsequent comment: " 1. All cows have horns 2. Almost all cows i've seen have horns" would be seen as a contradiction.

As per rape and sledging - the point of comparison is the fact that both are despicable behaviour and if one is showing passive condoning of one, one also shows passive condoning of the other by adopting a similar stance. The fact that one is saying 'well this is normal' for one act while claiming the other should be 'spoken out against' is contradictory, for BOTH are quite despicable behaviour, for both are forms of abuse ( albeit one is much milder in intensity than another- but it still is abuse). And the moment you say 'well that is normal, it is to be expected', you are essentially saying that 'it is okay to behave this way'. For if it is NOT okay, then such behaviour should be condemned.

Boyfriend?

one for ya.
Besides, i would prefer not to explain my ***-life in detail over here.

 

[Ikki]

1. If the PM of a country doesnt apologise for past crimes, the distinct impression,givent hat the said PM is democratically elected, is that he has popular support. The onus in a democratic country is to show that the PM doesnt have popular support in a given instance, rather than assuming it,given that it is a democracy.

Go learn about Australian's election process. Over here you do not vote for the head of government, the party does. As such, there are no simple majority voting here. It is either proportional or preferential. Please educate yourself before you make stupid comments.

2. Cultural value judgement when applied to an entire ethnicity qualifies as racism.

This might come as a shock to you, but not all Australians are white. In fact Australia is a multicultural society. Anglo-saxons are not such a big majority. Indians, Sri Lankans, Arabs, Africans, in fact whatever "race" you come from is represented in Australia with it's 20 million strong. So, when labelling people and judging their values, first LEARN what those are, second KNOW WHO they are.

3. The entire history of manking is not steeped with racism - the bulk of it is,especially european,i will grant that. But racism has very insignificant presence historically in Africa, south/eastern Asia and the Americas.

As does it here. For myself, an immigrant into this country, racial issues are almost non-existant. The smallest flairs reach the headlines, that is now scarce they really are.

4. FYI, in countries such as India or to lesser extent China, there are several dozens culture co-existing peacefully. Ofcourse you dont have that in OZ because OZ has an overlord culture with very little regional diversity ( same as in Canada/UK/US) rather than being a true co-exitsance of culture. Hell, OZ doesnt even have two major cultures for diversity, let alone several dozens as in the case of the abovementioned countries ( where there is parity between the population and cultural accomplishments of the said cultures). OZ has 'aussie culture + dozens of other itty bitty minor stragglers making up 10-15% of the country's populace with hardly any diversity' culture.
Perhaps you should come back in 500 years and talk about cultural diversity, given that OZ has merely begun the process and such things take aeons to work out ?

Another piece of genius.

My opinion, unlike some others, are always subject to change. So far, i have UN reports and Amnesty International reports,criticisng systematic racism in Australia against the words of nobody in a position of authority.
I think its fair to say which side i will lend a bigger credibility to.
Besides, i have every right to tell anybody anything that is documented, especially when held in a debating mode rather than 'set-in-concrete' mode.

I wonder when these opinions change? Really or better yet, HOW? The best example for you to do is actually come stay here a while. That would be best.

 

[C_C]

Go learn about Australian's election process. Over here you do not vote for the head of government, the party does. As such, there are no simple majority voting here. It is either proportional or preferential. Please educate yourself before you make stupid comments.

A democratic government by the very definition itself,is representative of the majority populace. And any action of the democratic government, by default, is to be taken as in congruence with the popular opinion. If an exception occurs, the onus lies with the populace to make this clear and not to be assumed as seen fit by individual agendas.

This might come as a shock to you, but not all Australians are white. In fact Australia is a multicultural society. Anglo-saxons are not such a big majority. Indians, Sri Lankans, Arabs, Africans, in fact whatever "race" you come from is represented in Australia with it's 20 million strong. So, when labelling people and judging their values, first LEARN what those are, second KNOW WHO they are.

92% of Australia is classified as Caucasian. Courtesy CIA factfiles. That leaves about 1.6 million non-whites. Not only is that insignificant in terms of %, its insignificant empirically as well.
Do i have to visit Australia to comment on that ?

Another piece of genius.

So tell me how does OZ come even remotely close to the cultural diversity represented by India and China ?
How many 'major ethnic groups' exist ? how many languages ? schools of art, literature, music, food, dance, etc. ? How does it even REMOTELY compare to a nation where there are over 200 major languages ( ie, forming a substantial part of the population %-wise) and over 1000 languages in total, over 100 recognised major ethnicities, where the customs and culture change markedly between any point and 500 miles away from that point ?
To understand diversity of that scale, OZ doesnt even come close. neither that US, Canada or Britain. if you can envision entire Europe under one national banner, with each current nation being a province, you will get the general picture.

Another piece of genius.

brilliant counter.

I wonder when these opinions change? Really or better yet, HOW? The best example for you to do is actually come stay here a while. That would be best.

If you can provide me with any bits of research or data, applied on a national level ( instead of personal level), that contradicts the UN reports and as such, i would consider the argument. But so far, all that has been is denials and personal testimonials.
Ironic, since when i made a personal testimonial about pentagenerians and such, it irked quite a few.

 

[Ikki]

As per Aussie culture, please. Dont start with your BS again.
Tell me- how many languages are spoken in OZ ? how many regional distinctness does it pose ? You are comparing the difference between Tasman culture and Perth ? well that is laughable because their cultures are 99% in congruity. There IS no diversity, save for regional quirks. I have posted on this in OT threads, so instead of repeating myself, i will jut cut-paste from there

Australia became a soverign country with it's own identiy only 105 years ago. Furthermore, immigration raised AFTER the World Wars. That is some 30-40 years. Now after that, even in America and Canada, where in the 70's was there any country that was like Australia in possessing such a large and diverse people. There are too many cultures even now for a second language to emerge. Different cultures being graduated into mainstream acceptance? You only have to come here to know the truth. Unfortunately, I don't see you becoming enlightened any time soon.

 

[Ikki]

WHy cant you take sledging out of this sport ? Was crowd sledging the players a part of the sport just 30-40 years ago in most parts of the world ? The answer is no. Perhaps people should learn a bit more about etiquette and perhaps such rougish behaviours should be actively discouraged, instead of passively encouraged by accepting it as 'normal' before we dismiss the feasability of removing prospect of spectators sledging the players?

HAHA, YES it WAS and WILL BE as is the nature of sport.

As per reality- well with such an apologist and accepting view of racism and crowd abuse, its not hard to immagine why certain nations have come under scrutiny of late due to deplorable crowd behaviour towards players.
I suppose by your reasoning, since we will never take out murderers from the society, its about time we started shrugging it off too....
Whats so hard about the simple fact that if you do not condemn abuse, you are passively condoning it, by making it seem 'normal' ?

And regardless of whether it is gonna change or not, a person who doesnt condone uncouth and abusive behaviour will always be a far more upstanding person in my eyes than someone who shrugs it off and sends the message that it is 'to be expected and normal'.

This is some funny shizzle. "AS PER REALITY" is how you started and then you got into comparing MURDER with SLEDGING. Get a BLOODY grip.

 

[Ikki]

Well the dignity shown by the SL management shouldnt be construed as it being no big deal.
The fact that such people can get away scot free in OZ ( doesnt matter if its a criminal or civil court) is troubling, as it shows a marked tolerance for intolerant behavour.

It had nothing to do with dignity. When laws are broken it has nothing to do with dignity. When sanctions are given it has nothing to do with dignity. When LAWS are made they they regard ANY infringment unacceptable. SO IF THIS WAS SUCH A BIG RACIST ISSUE YOU CAN BET YOUR LUCKY HAT THEY WOULD HAVE COMPLAINED. Whew, making me use caps .

 

[C_C]

Australia became a soverign country with it's own identiy only 105 years ago. Furthermore, immigration raised AFTER the World Wars. That is some 30-40 years. Now after that, even in America and Canada, where in the 70's was there any country that was like Australia in possessing such a large and diverse people. There are too many cultures even now for a second language to emerge. Different cultures being graduated into mainstream acceptance? You only have to come here to know the truth. Unfortunately, I don't see you becoming enlightened any time soon.

Oh it has made progress. But its still baby steps. Like i said, as far as cultural diversity and parity goes, check back in 500 years, when one region speaks another language, has different customs and completely different culture. Let me know when the difference, culturally speaking, between Western Australia and Tasmania is as big as the cultural difference between England and Greece.
For that is the scale you are talking about when you talk about the two most advanced nations in cultural diversity- India and China.

 

[Ikki]

I would like to see some reasoning to suggest that it is less prevalent in OZ than in most other nations, given OZ's track record in these matters and the considerable flak it has taken in racism issues with nutters talking about banning Asian migrations, racism in OZ sports, systematic racism in OZ societies (as claimed by the UN), etc.

I have no way of knowing and neither shall i speculate on how many racist tossers exist in OZ, what % of the population they are and whether they are the majority or the minority. But it does seem that they are more numerous proportionately than most other countries...and i would like to see some reasoning/evidence to counter that, not just nationalistic spiel.

You have no way of knowing anything unless you actually go to the country. NOW PROVIDE SOME STATS AS TO HOW AUSTRALIA IS MORE RACIST THAN OTHER COUNTRIES. You said you have no way of knowing...and you cannot take an immigrants word (me)...so are you looking for an answer to compliment your reasoning...or are you actually knowledgable enough to know not to label a nation until you've been there, OR know their history in large (which you do not).

 

[C_C]

HAHA, YES it WAS and WILL BE as is the nature of sport.

Perhaps in your country. Not from where i hail from ( i've never heard more than a once-in-a-blue-moon reference to a spectator abusing a player openly from the subcontinent until maybe 15-20 years ago).

This is some funny shizzle. "AS PER REALITY" is how you started and then you got into comparing MURDER with SLEDGING. Get a BLOODY grip.

The reality is, both are forms of abusive behaviour. You are normalising one while condemning other. Inconsistent. You are focussing on the intensity of the abuse while i am focussing on the nature of the behaviour- which is abusive.

It had nothing to do with dignity. When laws are broken it has nothing to do with dignity. When sanctions are given it has nothing to do with dignity. When LAWS are made they they regard ANY infringment unacceptable. SO IF THIS WAS SUCH A BIG RACIST ISSUE YOU CAN BET YOUR LUCKY HAT THEY WOULD HAVE COMPLAINED. Whew, making me use caps

Circular reasoning. From what Faaip has said, your country has no laws about individuals committing hate crimes. My entire contention is, there should be, given that this kind of behaviour shouldnt be encouraged and isnt encouraged in several other countries, who have criminal and/or civil penalties in place for identical behaviour.

 

[Ikki]

What has those comments gotto do with Murali debacle ?
He took my comments out of context, simply because he started quoting me mid sentence, where i was illustrating the difference between two sentences. And like any illustrations of difference, if you omit the qualifying statement(s), it will seem like a contradiction... if someone chops off the sentence " see if you can spot the difference between these two sentences", the subsequent comment: " 1. All cows have horns 2. Almost all cows i've seen have horns" would be seen as a contradiction.

I was the one arguing with you in that argument. The point that stands is that you're an unintelligible racist. Have an opinion, state an unbelievable point. But reason intelligently and you will at least be respected if not agreed to.

As per rape and sledging - the point of comparison is the fact that both are despicable behaviour and if one is showing passive condoning of one, one also shows passive condoning of the other by adopting a similar stance. The fact that one is saying 'well this is normal' for one act while claiming the other should be 'spoken out against' is contradictory, for BOTH are quite despicable behaviour, for both are forms of abuse ( albeit one is much milder in intensity than another- but it still is abuse). And the moment you say 'well that is normal, it is to be expected', you are essentially saying that 'it is okay to behave this way'. For if it is NOT okay, then such behaviour should be condemned.

Wrong comparison. In fact it indicates your large lack of understanding, whether it be Cricket or your social graces. I really think you are one warped individual.

one for ya.
Besides, i would prefer not to explain my ***-life in detail over here.

I would prefer you didn't either.

 

[C_C]

You have no way of knowing anything unless you actually go to the country. NOW PROVIDE SOME STATS AS TO HOW AUSTRALIA IS MORE RACIST THAN OTHER COUNTRIES. You said you have no way of knowing...and you cannot take an immigrants word (me)...so are you looking for an answer to compliment your reasoning...or are you actually knowledgable enough to know not to label a nation until you've been there, OR know their history in large (which you do not).

The prevalence of Australia's mention with association to racist incidents (such as in cricket), several immigrants out of Australia recollecting racism encountered, UN report about systematic racism in Australia, a racist actually making it to the OZ parliament, etc. suggests that the issue is more prevalent in OZ than in most other nations.


PS: I am very well aware of OZ history, atleast the standard version of it. History is one of my passions and i've read extensively about history of many nations. Cannot talk about isolated small-time incidents. But am very well aware of the country's historical timeline and major historical incidents.

 

[Ikki]

Perhaps in your country. Not from where i hail from ( i've never heard more than a once-in-a-blue-moon reference to a spectator abusing a player openly from the subcontinent until maybe 15-20 years ago).




The reality is, both are forms of abusive behaviour. You are normalising one while condemning other. Inconsistent. You are focussing on the intensity of the abuse while i am focussing on the nature of the behaviour- which is abusive.



Circular reasoning. From what Faaip has said, your country has no laws about individuals committing hate crimes. My entire contention is, there should be, given that this kind of behaviour shouldnt be encouraged and isnt encouraged in several other countries, who have criminal and/or civil penalties in place for identical behaviour.

Educate yourself. There is a notion often referred to relativity. Once you compare sledging to Murder it goes out the window. I'm not arguing with you on this. Obviously you've had a warped upbringing and will not understand the issue.