*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[C_C]

You know what 'C_C'?
I don't think you have ever been to Australia. You've probably seldom met an Australian and you know NOTHING about Australia.

I'm sick of you. You've gained NO impression about Australians, you're just trying to back up your absurd prejudices. You're fumbling about these debates with Aussie posters using dirty and childish tactics.

I think you should actually visit the country and spend some time there before you make such appalling generalisations.

Please. I have qualified my statements with 'what it seems to me so far' and i am most certainly open to changing my opinion on it. Temper Temper !
Curb down the nationalistic jingoism a bit, sil vous plait!

 

[Smudge]

You do know that Australia and New Zealand are two different countries, C_C?

I thought the name "Truekiwijoker" might have given it away...

 

[social]

it is very clear that it is not in the same ballpark..... ..social just wanted an excuse to put murali down and compared "warne was abused" to "murali was abused" without too many qualifying statements.....there is abuse and then there is the kind that murali faces.....not that you will understand/accept anyway...with your "cheating tamil" stance...

This is a "Warne vs Murali" thread.

I was comparing Murali's reaction to criticism v Warne's.

Given their respective performances in this regard, one is clearly ahead of the other.

But, back to the topic at hand, this year is the first time many Aussies have seen Murali for some time.

His performances have varied between excellent (2nd innings of Super Test) and abysmal.

Based on this season alone, he struggles in comparison to Warne.

BTW, I dont condone "cheating tamil" comments.

 

[Anil]

This is a "Warne vs Murali" thread.

I was comparing Murali's reaction to criticism v Warne's.

Given their respective performances in this regard, one is clearly ahead of the other.

no one is not, as you put it, "clearly ahead of the other", especially when the comparison doesn't take into account the kind of abuse that is meted out to each....and the difference in their personalities which determine their reaction to a particular situation....warne is a buoyant, extroverted personality while murali is a more reserved, sensitive person....neither is negative, they are just two very different types of people.....

 

[Ikki]

no one is not, as you put it, "clearly ahead of the other", especially when the comparison doesn't take into account the kind of abuse that is meted out to each....and the difference in their personalities which determine their reaction to a particular situation....warne is a buoyant, extroverted personality while murali is a more reserved, sensitive person....neither is negative, they are just two very different types of people.....

That's a part of the game. While it isn't a negative to be like Murali, it is a PLUS to be like Warne. Essentially such characteristics DO influence performance and as such to be able to deal with crap is as good of an asset as having a Googly in your repertoire. You can do without, but with it you're an even better bowler/player.

 

[C_C]

That's a part of the game. While it isn't a negative to be like Murali, it is a PLUS to be like Warne. Essentially such characteristics DO influence performance and as such to be able to deal with crap is as good of an asset as having a Googly in your repertoire. You can do without, but with it you're an even better bowler/player.

I would rather support someone who doesnt put up with abuse than someone who shrugs it off and passes it off as normal. It is a part of the game today and that is a part to be irradicated. Not a part to be pandered and accepted. And it doesnt make you any better a bowler to be putting up with abuse, neither does it make you any less to speak out against it.
I still find it ironic that the racist idjit at that game didnt get charged. Shows a marked tolerance for that kinda crap in the Aussie beurocracy.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Have you ever been to Australia?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I would rather support someone who doesnt put up with abuse than someone who shrugs it off and passes it off as normal. It is a part of the game today and that is a part to be irradicated. Not a part to be pandered and accepted. And it doesnt make you any better a bowler to be putting up with abuse, neither does it make you any less to speak out against it.
I still find it ironic that the racist idjit at that game didnt get charged. Shows a marked tolerance for that kinda crap in the Aussie beurocracy.

What would they charge him with, exactly? Being a jerk?

 

[honestbharani]

I think it is obvious that Murali is handling the stuff he is copping from the crowd pretty well, given his background and his culture. Can we at least now move on to comparing the two's performances and talking about it, rather than talking about Murali's action and the way he is handling the idiots in the crowd?

 

[Truekiwijoker]

If you think Murali is NOT a wrist spinner, it simply shows how LITTLE you know of the bloke's bowling and as such, it is obvious in that case that your views hold very little water in this issue.



There is NO SET RULE that an offie has to be a finger spinner and the leggie has to be a wrist spinner. Murali uses his wrists to bowl his offies, EVERY knowledgable cricket fan knows that. He is not John Emburey, for God's sakes......

Okay then 'honestbharani', how about you write to the ICC and every single sports publishing firm across the world and insist that we no longer use the terms 'finger-spinner' and 'wrist-spinner' for off-spin/LA orthodox and leg-spin/LA unorthodox respectively? Because for some reason you believe that Muritharan, an off-spiinner, should be called a 'wrist-spinner' (I think we could also call him an 'elbow-spinner').
I wish you luck in your quest to eiminate these age-old terms for cricket bowler, but I can't say I fancy your chances, despite the fact they're pretty much the ultimate "knowledgable cricket fan". In the meantime I'll continue using them (and 'cough-cough' reading your miffed replies).

But in the meantime I'm still a bit baffled about exactly what point you are trying to make...
I stated that 'chucking' wouldn't really give much assistance to a 'wrist-spinner', meaning of course either a leg-spinner or a left arm orthodox/SLC bowler. It doesn't take much knowledge of cricket to see that. Your rather rudely replied that 'it explains my confusion about muritharan' or something to that effect. So either:
1) By defining Murilitharan as a 'wrist-spinner', you're admitting that he chucks to improve his bowling.
2) You're foolishly attempting some personal attack on me by implying my knowledge about spin-bowling is scarse (which I can assure you, isn't) and that somehow my opinion isn't important. My life experience has taught me that nasty attacks like this come when someone tells someone else something they don't want to hear, and are usually a very poor reflection on that persons' character.

Either way it doesn't change my point that for Warne to throw the ball in delivery would be more trouble than it would be worth.

End of discussion.

But I do.

Oh really? You know Murilitharan personally do you?
Would you explain what this behaviour of his when he first got cleared was all about. He didn't say much (I've heard rumours that he isn't very smart) but he did act rather gloatingly and in a rather arrogant, along with Runatunga. At least thats how it looked to me, most of my associates (some of whom are Sri lankan) and even a couple of commentators!
Would you also explain why his current teammates don't seem as congratulating to him when he takes wickets as they do to the other bowlers? why Marvan Attapattu puts him in positions where he is subjected to heckling?
I've also heard that he's scarcely mentioned in P.A. DeSilva's book.

It doesn't ring true to me that a man who reacts so thin-skinned to sledging, and who has behaved with what looks like gloating to me would be a very nice guy any more than... well... the sort who would deliberately and irresponsibly contribute to the games demise for his own gains. I mean I read something on Cricinfo where he was boohooing about his treatment by the Aussie crowds, making it all personal as though they don't like HIM.

All the impressions I get is that personally he's a loathesome cretin.

Of course I'm not actually interested in the irrelevancy of what either Murilitharan or Warne are like as people, I mean from what I've heard Warne is personally pretty repulsive. But for some reason you've tried to paint his as this saintly victim, which doesn't say much for your objectivity.

 

[Truekiwijoker]

Please. I have qualified my statements with 'what it seems to me so far' and i am most certainly open to changing my opinion on it.

Yes thats right. You are INSISTANT that all Aussies over 50 are racist and that Australia is steeped in racism. You're even keen to dictate it too Australians, even though you've obviously never been there. You haven't ever qualified anything, you've just made sweeping generalisations and then tried (unsuccessfully) to twist the words of others, deluding yourself that you aren't loosing badly all debates.
And you seem inable to actually comprehend alot of peoples retorts, let alone consider them.

Temper Temper !
Curb down the nationalistic jingoism a bit, sil vous plait!

[Truekiwijoker shakes his head]
Don't worry mate, you've once again misunderstood someone else. Don't worry, I knew you'd reply but I didn't expect you to actually reply to any point of mine and instead skirt around the issue...
...as always.

 

[C_C]

What would they charge him with, exactly? Being a jerk?

Racial instigation perhaps ? Thats what the charge would be in Canada...painting your face black and throwing verbal abuse at a dark skinned player fits under racial abuse by any definition of the term.

 

[Truekiwijoker]

This is a "Warne vs Murali" thread.

I was comparing Murali's reaction to criticism v Warne's.

Given their respective performances in this regard, one is clearly ahead of the other.

But, back to the topic at hand, this year is the first time many Aussies have seen Murali for some time.

His performances have varied between excellent (2nd innings of Super Test) and abysmal.

Based on this season alone, he struggles in comparison to Warne.

Well unfortunately some posters have tried to turn this into a racial issue (as though Muralitharan was a victim of racism) and a personal issue (as though Muritharan is the greatest person in the world). I think it's all rather pathetic, but I guess some people for some reason I won't try to understand feel quite strongly for him.

BTW, I dont condone "cheating tamil" comments.

Will someone tell me what is so wrong with that? He's a Tamil and I'm sure he cheats.

 

[C_C]

Yes thats right. You are INSISTANT that all Aussies over 50 are racist and that Australia is steeped in racism. You're even keen to dictate it too Australians, even though you've obviously never been there. You haven't ever qualified anything, you've just made sweeping generalisations and then tried (unsuccessfully) to twist the words of others, deluding yourself that you aren't loosing badly all debates.
And you seem inable to actually comprehend alot of peoples retorts, let alone consider them.

First, learn to read properly. I said in my experience, MOST 50+ aussies i've met.........(Fill in the rest).

As per Australia steeped in racism- i will take a UN report, Amnesty International report, etc. over jingoistic nationalism. Thank you very much.

 

[Blaze]

This thing still going on?

 

[C_C]

Well unfortunately some posters have tried to turn this into a racial issue (as though Muralitharan was a victim of racism) and a personal issue (as though Muritharan is the greatest person in the world). I think it's all rather pathetic, but I guess some people for some reason I won't try to understand feel quite strongly for him.

Because painting your face black and throwing racial abuse at a darkskinned player fits the defintion of 'racial abuse' by any stretch of immagination.

Will someone tell me what is so wrong with that? He's a Tamil and I'm sure he cheats.

Just about as wrong as referring to a white guy as 'sperm-faced white trash'.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

As I said somewhere earlier in this thread, one of the things that bugs me about the Warne/Murali debate is how Murali's fans seem to take it as a gospel fact that Murali is some sort of saint and Warne is one step above Ted Bundy.

Warne is obviously a fairly stupid man off the cricket field, does idiotic things in his private and his public life on a regular basis and isn't the sort of guy it's easy to like personally, however much you admire him as a sportsman. He is however a great competitor and quite humble for someone with so much success, and there's no doubt his fellow players think very highly of him.

Murali too has quite a few undesirable traits. He's not a public idiot on a regular basis, but he has always struck me as rather precious and self-satisfied, and for examples of the lack of consideration he has for his teammates you don't need to look much further than the VB series recently. In one game in particular, he put down more than one catch himself, but when Jayawardene (I think) put down a sitter off his bowling at slip, he carried on like someone had stolen his deserved wicket. It's a standard rule of team behaviour in cricket everywhere that if a teammate stuffs up and costs you or the team, you don't rub their face in it, you pat them on the back and get on with it. Add to that his regular tantrums about the way he is treated in Australia by the crowds (which, let's face it, isn't really that much worse than Australians being showered with thrown objects in New Zealand or whatever else other players have to put up with), and the way he allowed Ranatunga to act disgracefully in his name in the 90s and its easy enough to see how one could object to Murali as an individual as well.

 

[Truekiwijoker]

no one is not, as you put it, "clearly ahead of the other", especially when the comparison doesn't take into account the kind of abuse that is meted out to each....and the difference in their personalities which determine their reaction to a particular situation....warne is a buoyant, extroverted personality while murali is a more reserved, sensitive person....neither is negative, they are just two very different types of people.....

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned Muritharan isn't in the same league as Warne. I know he has some outrageous average, but I don't think theres to much to be taken from it considering most wickets were awarded at home, against some poor opposition and in an attack which has only enjoyed Chaminda Vaas as a serious wicket-taker. Murili's butchering in Australia convinces me that he's only good when he plays people who are a bit crap.

Much of Murilitharans success comes from the fact they let him chuck. While that can also be said of Saqlain Mushtaq, Harbijan Singh and young Johan Botha, it is worth noting that those three bowlers chuck occaisionally, while Murilitharan ALLWAYS chucks. I believe those three bowlers are all good cricketers and talented sportsmen and would still be effective players without the ICC 8-degree ruling, being very good off-spinners. I don't feel the same way about Murilitharan, who just doesn't look as co-ordinated as the others, doesn't look like a true sportsman. He'd be just another average run-of-the-mill nothing special off-spinner filling in taking the odd wicket.

And that's a big reason why I think the Aussie fans give him such a hard time. Like me they think he's a phoney and they don't like the repercussions of what he's done.

 

[Blaze]

90% of people that enter this thread have already made up their mind about who is the better bowler before they open this thread. Nothing said by anyone here is going to change their view IMO.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Racial instigation perhaps ? Thats what the charge would be in Canada...painting your face black and throwing verbal abuse at a dark skinned player fits under racial abuse by any definition of the term.

Racial abuse isn't a crime though. We do have racial vilification laws in Australia, but they are really for published works and not for some drunk moron painting their face black and calling someone a chucker.

Certainly he could have been ejected from the ground, but charged criminally? No way. And if he was it would be a joke, in my opinion. What he did wasn't a crime, it was just stupid and objectionable.