*Official** New Zealand in England

[tooextracool]

A lot of people are saying that here in NZ too, but what has someone like Trescothick got mentally or technique-wise that Fleming hasn't?

1) if you are going to compare fleming to an opener, than compare him to a decent opener!! out of justin langer,mark richardson,gary kirsten,graeme smith etc you compare him to trescothick??
2)fleming cant go for 10 balls without scoring, he ends up playing shots like he did in the first innings. particularly with richardson at the other end we will see fleming playing more stupid shots in trying to release the pressure that should never have really been there in the first place. hes a strokemaker is fleming and strokemakers bat at 3 or 4.

Fleming chucks a lot of innings away in the 30's or the 60's, but if I was betting on NZ reaching 20/0

precisely why he shouldnt opening the batting, an openers job is to at least see the new ball through not get out when the score is 20/0.

 

[tooextracool]

I dislike most of the English team. All, in fact, except for Hoggard. And I really hate Vaughan, Trescothick, Giles, and now Geraint Jones.

Their faces **** me off.

out of all the players in the side, hoggards face doesnt **** you off??

 

[luckyeddie]

1) if you are going to compare fleming to an opener, than compare him to a decent opener!! out of justin langer,mark richardson,gary kirsten,graeme smith etc you compare him to trescothick??

There were nicer ways to have said that
short of hitting old Kent with a bat.
I knew Tooextracool
was a bit of a fool
but I'm starting to think he's a prat.

 

[Kent]

1) if you are going to compare fleming to an opener, than compare him to a decent opener!! out of justin langer,mark richardson,gary kirsten,graeme smith etc you compare him to trescothick??

Yes, that's right. You're the one who mentioned the requirements of English conditions. Trescothick has survived as an opener in the UK with 18 counties trying to produce better alternatives, so why can't Fleming for NZ?

2)fleming cant go for 10 balls without scoring, he ends up playing shots like he did in the first innings. particularly with richardson at the other end we will see fleming playing more stupid shots in trying to release the pressure that should never have really been there in the first place. hes a strokemaker is fleming and strokemakers bat at 3 or 4.

Like Sehwag, Gayle, and Hayden would if they were touring? To be honest I think being timid is only going to make things worse for NZ. Papps and Richardson putting on a go-slow (like we saw from Fleming and Richardson against SA at the Basin) will only let good bowlers find their way into the right channels.

NZ billed themselves as "the most talented ever" when they arrived, yet have such a 'goldilocks' batting line-up. Everything has to be just right for this raft of strokemakers to come out and thrive, so people want to send in a pair of anchoring openers. Oh wait! We're on 150/0 and the new ball is due. Whoops, now it's almost stumps - send out Tuffey.

When are are any of these guys going to be accountable? Two of them (Fleming at opener, McCullum/Astle at #3) simply have to be, otherwise NZ can't play with the big boys of world cricket like they claim they can.

 

[Kent]

There were nicer ways to have said that
short of hitting old Kent with a bat.
I knew Tooextracool
was a bit of a fool
but I'm starting to think he's a prat.

Nice work Eddie!

I quite enjoy Tooextracool's input though. He's a refreshing, Richard Lite.

 

[tooextracool]

Yes, that's right. You're the one who mentioned the requirements of English conditions. Trescothick has survived as an opener in the UK with 18 counties trying to produce better alternatives, so why can't Fleming for NZ?

theres a difference between "survived" and "getting the best out of a player".
the selectors should have dropped trescothick a long long time ago after his failures on every non flat wicket there was.
fleming is too aggressive as a player to open especially with richardson constantly putting more pressure on him to increase the run rate at the other end. also fleming likes to play his shots and with the new ball in england you have to be careful with what you play and what you dont.

Like Sehwag, Gayle, and Hayden would if they were touring?

honestly what has gayle ever done on a non flat wicket?his overall average is nothing special either.
hayden and sehwag have a much better eye and might appear to be extremely aggressive openers but both of them are capable of changing their game according to the conditions. i watched sehwag at headingly in 2002 and he played the most defensive innings that you'll ever see from him in the first session when the ball was seaming around a bit. that being said he will be a lot more effective batting at 4 but hes only being made to open against his will.
hayden too is capable of playing defensively if required...as he did in SL and india. the problem is we look at how aggressively these players play in australia and some of the other flat wickets where the ball comes on so very nicely to the bat and make judgements that they happen to be aggressive players.

To be honest I think being timid is only going to make things worse for NZ. Papps and Richardson putting on a go-slow (like we saw from Fleming and Richardson against SA at the Basin) will only let good bowlers find their way into the right channels.

NZ billed themselves as "the most talented ever" when they arrived, yet have such a 'goldilocks' batting line-up. Everything has to be just right for this raft of strokemakers to come out and thrive, so people want to send in a pair of anchoring openers. Oh wait! We're on 150/0 and the new ball is due. Whoops, now it's almost stumps - send out Tuffey.

When are are any of these guys going to be accountable? Two of them (Fleming at opener, McCullum/Astle at #3) simply have to be, otherwise NZ can't play with the big boys of world cricket like they claim they can.

you've got the whole thing all wrong...NZ dont have defensive players all the way down till no 7 do they?the thing is that you need 2 openers in england to play defensively at least while the ball is new, then you have the styris',astles,cairns,orams etc to come in and bludgeon the bowling all over the park.

 

[luckyeddie]

Nice work Eddie!

I quite enjoy Tooextracool's input though. He's a refreshing, Richard Lite.

So do I, but then try as I might,
I just cannot entice him to bite.
I'll keep pulling his chain
'til I hurt the guy's brain
and we get a good poetry fight.

 

[Loony BoB]

I dislike most of the English team. All, in fact, except for Hoggard. And I really hate Vaughan, Trescothick, Giles, and now Geraint Jones.

Their faces **** me off.

No more perchance does mine, or his, or hers.

Then again, Shakespeare managed a much better statement than "Their faces **** me off."

EDIT: I blame eddie for making me think of Shakespeare. *shakes a fist*

 

[Isolator]

On their faces I spit,
This band of English twits,
Sons of silly persons.
Hoggard aside,
I wouldn't mind if they died,
I fart in their general direction.

 

[Loony BoB]

Anyone flaming on about the NZ batsmen being substandard should take into note that the English bowling was at times as best as bowling as anyone could have offered on that day, and nigh on impossible to hit. I feel Styris and McMillan were not just unlucky with shot selection but also unlucky to come in at a time where the bowling was undoubtedly at it's best for the match.

The bowling, on the other hand, I'm not sure on. Dropping Martin would be a bit hard, I feel. Tuffey, if he's having trouble, I see no problem with dropping.

 

[luckyeddie]

No more perchance does mine, or his, or hers.

Then again, Shakespeare managed a much better statement than "Their faces **** me off."

EDIT: I blame eddie for making me think of Shakespeare. *shakes a fist*

Oh, I have to agree with you there.
Shakespeare had an abundance of flair.
From those Wilde-like and witty
to designed by committee -
'Exeunt, followed by a bear'.

 

[luckyeddie]

On their faces I spit,
This band of English twits,
Sons of silly persons.
Hoggard aside,
I wouldn't mind if they died,
I fart in their general direction.

Seldom have I seen rhyme more colonic -
how I wish your work was more laconic.
'Twould have barely been worse
if you'd written blank verse
instead of this ambitious Pythonic.

 

[garage flower]

On their faces I spit,
This band of English twits,
Sons of silly persons.
Hoggard aside,
I wouldn't mind if they died,
I fart in their general direction.

Rhyming "person" and "direction" is a bit of a stretch, couldn't you have worked something in about the European elections?......*thinks about it for a second*...Probably not.

 

[Isolator]

I didn't intend to rhyme those two words... it just came out that way.

Seldom have I seen rhyme more colonic -
how I wish your work was more laconic.
'Twould have barely been worse
if you'd written blank verse
instead of this ambitious Pythonic.

You prefer "their faces **** me off", then?

 

[luckyeddie]

Rhyming "person" and "direction" is a bit of a stretch, couldn't you have worked something in about the European elections?......*thinks about it for a second*...Probably not.

My ballot papers had arrived
and inside them I eagerly dived
I've chucked out Kilroy-Silk
and the rest of his ilk -
just Labour and the LibDems survived.

 

[luckyeddie]

I didn't intend to rhyme those two words... it just came out that way.



You prefer "their faces **** me off", then?

Not at all, for that would be a lie
and that's something I don't like to try.
On insults I shall not linger
but if you starred in 'Goldfinger',
'Mister Bond, I expect you to die'

 

[Loony BoB]

There once was a member called Isolator
Mother England, seems he did hate 'er.
luckyeddie did not take his time
To pass Isolater an insult in rhyme
In words his foe clearly would not understand
Showing just who had the upper hand
But then in an obscure redirection
eddie moved onto the European election
Good God, thought BoB, as he read over the posts
He'd found quite the party but wasn't sure on the hosts

It's been a long time since I did make a rhyme.
Forgive me this once it it's made me a dunce
I'll hopefully improve as I get in my groove
But no promise I'll make, my dignity is at stake.

 

[luckyeddie]

Some think that my poetry's cheeky,
but it's deeper than that - often sneaky.
But then witness the miracle -
a Kiwi waxing lyrical -
not from home either, but from 'Old Reekie'.

 

[anzac]

fleming is too aggressive as a player to open especially with richardson constantly putting more pressure on him to increase the run rate at the other end. also fleming likes to play his shots and with the new ball in england you have to be careful with what you play and what you dont.

you've got the whole thing all wrong...NZ dont have defensive players all the way down till no 7 do they?the thing is that you need 2 openers in england to play defensively at least while the ball is new, then you have the styris',astles,cairns,orams etc to come in and bludgeon the bowling all over the park.

*as I've said b4 - IMO Richardson is a very difficult customer to bat WITH unless you are of the same temperament, & IMO this is part of the problem re the batting & poor shot selection.............& this is the basis of my potential dropping of him regarding the philosophy of 'advance the game'..........

my other alternative would be to partner him with a 'pinch hitter' on any sort of decent track with license to play shots...........(lets face it we loose early enough wickets as it is - perhaps they could get some sort of start or see off the opening attack)..............and then revert to a more classical opener on any green or dodgy type tracks...........

*I don't know about 'defensively' as opposed to 'patiently'........you've got to have the patience to see what the pitch & bowlers are doing - make adjustments accordingly, see the opening attack off, judge the bowling changes, review your strategy & targets & lay the platform for the innings. However you must then be able to keep the scoreboard ticking over with singles while doing this & rotate the strike - neither of which Richardson can do. Furthermore you need to then be able to put your foot on the gas & launch the innings RR back to a level that your shot makers do not have to go hard at it from the start - another area that Richardson can't perform.........

Lastly I still believe you need to have some sort of balance within your middle & lower orders - a moderate style grafter to build the innings such as Martyn, Dravid, S Waugh........so as to be able to shield the 'hitters' from themsleves & the red mist..........

 

[anzac]

The batting bit I agree with.

Give Franklin a shot? Yes.

Bring in Butler? I'm leaning towards no.

who are the genuine 'strike' / wicket taking alternatives when looking for seam firepower & PACE????? Sure his figures aren't great - but he's at the batsman at least, rather than military line & length...............otherwise the cupboard looks a bit bare.........