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*Official* English Football Season 2005-06

Barney Rubble

International Coach
PY said:
Nah, but he is capable of playing on the left of midfield though and it's where he played most of his early games for United and also, most important, he's a 'AM L' on CM2004 so it must be true. :p
Yeah, that was kind of the point I was making - he's not a left back and he's not a central midfielder, yet he's been picked in the England squad with those having been the only two positions he's played Premiership football in. Lends credence to my "what the hell is he doing in the squad" theory, I think. Would also lend credence to a "he's an awesome player who is good enough for England even in the wrong position" theory, but I don't think anyone's going to be positing any of them any time soon. :p
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
marc71178 said:
Richardson and Downing?

For a start, Richardson isn't a left midfielder, he's just left footed.
Downing is injured, and hasn't had much of a chance, but he'd have to do very well to displace Cole, who looked very dangerous when he got the ball (yet again) - he's adapting well to that role. As for cutting inside making it easier for the defenders - that'll be why he was often running past them when he cut inside then...
How many dangerous balls did he supply into the box? Hardly any, none if that Owen sitter (where he headed it straight at the keeper) wasn't off his diagonal cross.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
well if you people think that King isn't the best option in that holding mid-field role & it should be Carrick, if he does play (which i hope he does because that role will be vital), what do you suggest happen on the left should Cole stay? or should Gerrard go?, well if it comes down to that i reckon we all know whats going to happen.....
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
aussie said:
well if you people think that King isn't the best option in that holding mid-field role & it should be Carrick, if he does play (which i hope he does because that role will be vital), what do you suggest happen on the left should Cole stay? or should Gerrard go?, well if it comes down to that i reckon we all know whats going to happen.....
Well yea we all know Sven is gutless, so Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham and J Cole will be the midfield unless one is injured or suspended whether it's good for the team or not. Personally I think Gerrard has always underperformed for England and wouldn't hesitate to put King, Carrick whoever in his place.
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
aussie said:
well if you people think that King isn't the best option in that holding mid-field role & it should be Carrick, if he does play (which i hope he does because that role will be vital), what do you suggest happen on the left should Cole stay? or should Gerrard go?, well if it comes down to that i reckon we all know whats going to happen.....
It depends on what you mean by "the left". If you mean the left of a flat 4--4-2, then it should be Cole every time, because Gerrard has proven in the past that he cannot play there - however, if you mean the left of a diamond midfield, which I suspect you do, then it has to be Gerrard, because Cole does not have the defensive capabilities to play as part of a 3-man central midfield. He doesn't tackle well enough, and he is wasted centrally unless he is playing behind the front two, because he doesn't get enough space.

The holding midfield role can be used in either a diamond or a flat 4-4-2 - the role in a diamond is far more important, but England have shown in the past that the diamond restricts certain players (J Cole, Beckham, Lampard) greatly, whereas the flat 4-4-2 with a holding midfielder, used last night for the first time since the last World Cup where Nicky Butt performed the role brilliantly, allows the other central midfielder to get forward more often without burdening him with the restriction of staying centrally behind the front two. It also allows a far greater threat in wide positions, and gives the strikers far more space to manoeuvre within the formation. Witness Owen dropping deep last night far more than usual, and laying the ball through to SWP or Cole - with a diamond, the central area is so cramped he'd never have been able to do that, as he proved when Crouch came on and the diamond was used. The flat 4-4-2 with a holding midfielder is the only formation which may be able to win the World Cup for England. If Sven has any sense, they should play to their strengths and line up like this:

Robinson (GK, obviously)
G Neville (RB, with license to get forward and overlap Beckham)
A Cole (LB, with a license to get forward but an instruction not to restrict space available to J Cole)
Ferdinand (CB, scrapes in ahead of Campbell because he's more comfortable on the ball)
Terry (CB, because he HAS to be there)
Beckham (RM, with instructions to get further forward and not restrict Owen's chances of winning headers by crossing from positions that are too deep)
J Cole (LM, with instructions to run at defenders and get the opposition on the back foot as much as possible, but without neglecting to support A Cole defensively)
Carrick (CM, with instructions to sit deep, break up attacks, start moves forward and pick out passes in a crowded midfield)
Lampard (CM, with license to get forward and do what he does best - score goals)
Owen (CF, with a license to be Michael Owen and get in the bloody box, something he's spent too little time doing over the past year or so with England)
Rooney (CF, with a license to do whatever the hell he wants, as long as it involves running from deep at defenders in central positions, and getting chances to shoot from the edge of the area)

Gerrard stays on the bench because he is incapable of doing what his manager asks of him at international level. He does it superbly at club level, but every role he's played at international level he's played it worse than he knows he can. Frequently seems lost and out of position, even when he's not, like he doesn't understand his role.

SWP stays on the bench, but not for long - the minute Beckham starts underperforming, SWP comes on and the armband goes to Terry (NOT Owen).

The only other thing the team need to remember is not to sit too deep, and to press the opposition more - against Austria we gave them far too much time on the ball, although we were better last night. We have a shot at winning the World Cup, but only if we continue to play as we did last night or better. Any worse and we'll get tonked by good teams (which Poland are not).
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
If Ashley and Joe Cole both play on the left I think Ashley should overlap Joe as much as possible, that's the only way England are going to have a threat down the left wing.
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
Scaly piscine said:
If Ashley and Joe Cole both play on the left I think Ashley should overlap Joe as much as possible, that's the only way England are going to have a threat down the left wing.
Did you watch last night's game? There were times at which Joe Cole ran rings around the Polish right-back. You can't say he wasn't a threat.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Barney Rubble said:
Did you watch last night's game? There were times at which Joe Cole ran rings around the Polish right-back. You can't say he wasn't a threat.
He looks good on the ball, but how many crosses did he deliver? The trouble is, like most right footed players played on the left, he has a tendancy to cut in onto his stronger foot. As I've said before his position is effectively a free role rather than an orthodox left-winger. He doesn't provide any cover either, when Carragher was caught out of position Terry went across to cover, leaving only Young in the middle & it effectively cost us a goal.

We'll play better teams than Poland (out in the first round, or your money back) in the WC &, if the Poles can exploit it, others will be able to too.
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
BoyBrumby said:
He looks good on the ball, but how many crosses did he deliver? The trouble is, like most right footed players played on the left, he has a tendancy to cut in onto his stronger foot. As I've said before his position is effectively a free role rather than an orthodox left-winger. He doesn't provide any cover either, when Carragher was caught out of position Terry went across to cover, leaving only Young in the middle & it effectively cost us a goal.

We'll play better teams than Poland (out in the first round, or your money back) in the WC &, if the Poles can exploit it, others will be able to too.
It's not always about delivering crosses, especially when your main goalscorer is about three foot two. Cole provides penetration, and the extra attacking dimension he brings to the side is worth the risk of leaving the left-back exposed. I think it's a little tenuous to say that Cole had anything to do with the goal - if Luke Young hadn't fallen asleep at the back post, they wouldn't have scored it, regardless of what Cole was doing.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Barney Rubble said:
It's not always about delivering crosses, especially when your main goalscorer is about three foot two. Cole provides penetration, and the extra attacking dimension he brings to the side is worth the risk of leaving the left-back exposed. I think it's a little tenuous to say that Cole had anything to do with the goal - if Luke Young hadn't fallen asleep at the back post, they wouldn't have scored it, regardless of what Cole was doing.
Granted Young was clearly at fault, but it wasn't coincidence that the chance came from the left side (our left, I mean) either. I'm not blaming Cole for the goal per se, but it's obviously part of a midfielder's remit to provide some cover; otherwise they're just auxilary attackers. Terry was unlucky when his initial block went straight to the Pole too, FWIW.

Cole is really a luxary player & (if we're to play Lamps, Becks & Gerrard) I don't think we can afford him just now. I can't see Sven leaving any of them out which means we either have Gerrard holding (and I don't think he can tackle) or leave out Cole and revert to the diamond with King/Butt/Carrick/Parker/Hargreaves/ P Neville (in descending personal preference order) in the holding role.
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
BoyBrumby said:
Granted Young was clearly at fault, but it wasn't coincidence that the chance came from the left side (our left, I mean) either. I'm not blaming Cole for the goal per se, but it's obviously part of a midfielder's remit to provide some cover; otherwise they're just auxilary attackers. Terry was unlucky when his initial block went straight to the Pole too, FWIW.

Cole is really a luxary player & (if we're to play Lamps, Becks & Gerrard) I don't think we can afford him just now. I can't see Sven leaving any of them out which means we either have Gerrard holding (and I don't think he can tackle) or leave out Cole and revert to the diamond with King/Butt/Carrick/Parker/Hargreaves/ P Neville (in descending personal preference order) in the holding role.
Ah, there appears to be a misunderstanding - my post above assumes that the rest of the team is as I've laid it out, i.e. with Gerrard on the bench and Carrick in the holding role. I completely agree with not playing Cole if you're also going to play Lampard, Gerrard and Beckham - you've got virtually no defensive cover at all there, even if Stevie G does manage to rein himself in and play the holding role.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Barney Rubble said:
Ah, there appears to be a misunderstanding - my post above assumes that the rest of the team is as I've laid it out, i.e. with Gerrard on the bench and Carrick in the holding role. I completely agree with not playing Cole if you're also going to play Lampard, Gerrard and Beckham - you've got virtually no defensive cover at all there, even if Stevie G does manage to rein himself in and play the holding role.
Fair enough. I think the holy trio is largely bomb-proof in Sven's eyes. It is quite a while since Gerrard really turned in a performance for us tho. That said I think he'd have to be quite bad, given Sven's conservatism, not to start come the WC.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
BoyBrumby said:
He looks good on the ball, but how many crosses did he deliver? The trouble is, like most right footed players played on the left, he has a tendancy to cut in onto his stronger foot. As I've said before his position is effectively a free role rather than an orthodox left-winger. He doesn't provide any cover either, when Carragher was caught out of position Terry went across to cover, leaving only Young in the middle & it effectively cost us a goal.

We'll play better teams than Poland (out in the first round, or your money back) in the WC &, if the Poles can exploit it, others will be able to too.
Exactly, when he cuts back in that means they opposition have at least 3 defenders covering which makes it difficult to thread balls through. Poland got behind England once... look what happened. England will have to stretch teams across the width of the pitch in the World Cup or they'll find it very difficult to score. Also I think Owen, Rooney or whoever need to gamble more when the high ball goes to Crouch - he *always* flicks the ball on and the two of them just stand there like wallies instead of timing a run (which should be easy enough to do when you know the ball is floating towards his head).
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
BoyBrumby said:
Fair enough. I think the holy trio is largely bomb-proof in Sven's eyes. It is quite a while since Gerrard really turned in a performance for us tho. That said I think he'd have to be quite bad, given Sven's conservatism, not to start come the WC.
Yeah - that's why I'm saying we don't have a hope of World Cup glory. Sven won't drop players that should be dropped.
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
Scaly piscine said:
Exactly, when he cuts back in that means they opposition have at least 3 defenders covering which makes it difficult to thread balls through. Poland got behind England once... look what happened. England will have to stretch teams across the width of the pitch in the World Cup or they'll find it very difficult to score. Also I think Owen, Rooney or whoever need to gamble more when the high ball goes to Crouch - he *always* flicks the ball on and the two of them just stand there like wallies instead of timing a run (which should be easy enough to do when you know the ball is floating towards his head).
Stretching teams across the width of the pitch is all well and good but you're missing the point - it's no good getting dozens of crosses in game after game if you've got no-one to get on the end of them. Michael Owen's aerial ability is not good enough for England to be making it part of their game plan to whip balls in for him. Crosses are a necessary part of attacking football, but that doesn't mean to say that if you get a lot of quality crosses in you will score a lot of goals. When Arsenal went on their unbeaten run of nigh on 50 games, they scored virtually no goals from headers and crosses, and the crosses they did create goals from were along the ground, and anyone can cross along the ground with their weak foot. They did it with a right-footed left-winger in Pires, and the very same attacking left-back England would have picked yesterday had he been fit. Arsenal stretch teams across the width of the pitch - but there are plenty of ways to score that don't involve balls whipped into the box, especially with a team like England who have players like Owen, Rooney, and Lampard who have proven themselves to be top-class goalscorers no matter how or from who the assists are delivered.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Barney Rubble said:
Stretching teams across the width of the pitch is all well and good but you're missing the point - it's no good getting dozens of crosses in game after game if you've got no-one to get on the end of them. Michael Owen's aerial ability is not good enough for England to be making it part of their game plan to whip balls in for him. Crosses are a necessary part of attacking football, but that doesn't mean to say that if you get a lot of quality crosses in you will score a lot of goals. When Arsenal went on their unbeaten run of nigh on 50 games, they scored virtually no goals from headers and crosses, and the crosses they did create goals from were along the ground, and anyone can cross along the ground with their weak foot. They did it with a right-footed left-winger in Pires, and the very same attacking left-back England would have picked yesterday had he been fit. Arsenal stretch teams across the width of the pitch - but there are plenty of ways to score that don't involve balls whipped into the box, especially with a team like England who have players like Owen, Rooney, and Lampard who have proven themselves to be top-class goalscorers no matter how or from who the assists are delivered.
I didn't say anything about them being aerial, hanging crosses which obviously Owen and Rooney would be useless on. When he was at Manure Beckham for example hit endless crosses to fairly short players and they had a LOT of success with it. The CDMs went on their run because they hardly played any quality sides who'd exploit their weakness of players who try to walk the ball in the net. No matter how good the side you're up against if you keep hitting dangerous balls into the box whether they be cut-backs from the byline, a ball whipped in with pace or whatever you'll score sooner rather than later. Germany have won 3 World Cups doing the simple things like this.
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
Scaly piscine said:
I didn't say anything about them being aerial, hanging crosses which obviously Owen and Rooney would be useless on. When he was at Manure Beckham for example hit endless crosses to fairly short players and they had a LOT of success with it. The CDMs went on their run because they hardly played any quality sides who'd exploit their weakness of players who try to walk the ball in the net. No matter how good the side you're up against if you keep hitting dangerous balls into the box whether they be cut-backs from the byline, a ball whipped in with pace or whatever you'll score sooner rather than later. Germany have won 3 World Cups doing the simple things like this.
They played every side in the Premiership! Twice! There's at least a few quality sides in there.

And German World Cup success was built mostly on solid defence, actually - they didn't play a particularly different style of football to anyone else.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Barney Rubble said:
They played every side in the Premiership! Twice! There's at least a few quality sides in there.

And German World Cup success was built mostly on solid defence, actually - they didn't play a particularly different style of football to anyone else.
Not at the time there weren't, Manure were as bad as they are now (or possibly worse), it was before Chelsea had most bought most of the best English talent in the Premiership and I think they'd not played many games in Europe out of the 50.

German World Cup success was built on doing all of the simple things well.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Barney Rubble said:
Yeah - that's why I'm saying we don't have a hope of World Cup glory. Sven won't drop players that should be dropped.
true true, but i'll hope for the best, here's another suggestion who do you think should be the second central defender between Ferdinand & Campbell?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Scaly piscine said:
How many dangerous balls did he supply into the box? Hardly any, none if that Owen sitter (where he headed it straight at the keeper) wasn't off his diagonal cross.
Well last I saw it was his ball for the first goal.

He was also dangerous running to the area and slipping passes in and around.
 

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