*Official* English Football Season 2005-06

[Tom Halsey]

Doesn't prove anything tho. Newcastle were 12 points clear in 1996. It's where a club finishes that matters.

I know it doesn't really prove anything, I was just asking out of curiosity, and I knew they were quite near the top.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I know it doesn't really prove anything, I was just asking out of curiosity, and I knew they were quite near the top.

I don't kno off the top of my head! I'm sad, but not quite that sad!

 

[Tom Halsey]

1990/91: Arsenal 1st
1991/92: Arsenal 4th (10 points off Man Utd)
1992/93: Arsenal 10th (28 points off Man Utd)
1993/94: Arsenal 4th (21 points off Man Utd)
1994/95: Arsenal 12th (38 points off Man Utd)
1995/96: Arsenal 5th (19 points off Man Utd, two points ahead of 9th place)

Wenger era:
1996/97: Arsenal 3rd (7 points off Man Utd)
1997/98: Arsenal 1st
1998/99: Arsenal 2nd (1 point off Man Utd)
1999/00: Arsenal 2nd (18 points off Man Utd)
2000/01: Arsenal 2nd (10 points off Man Utd)
2001/02: Arsenal 1st
2002/03: Arsenal 2nd (5 points off Man Utd)
2003/04: Arsenal 1st (first team unbeaten)
2004/05: Arsenal 2nd (12 points off Chelsea)
2005/06: Arsenal 5th (24 points off Chelsea)

Yes, he inherited Bergkamp and Adams from Rioch, but that record is much, much better than Arsenal's had in any era before (source: Fever Pitch).

In all fairness there is more improvement there than I expected, but still, given how long he's had Arsenal at 2nd best in the country, why hasn't he ever really advanced them to undisputed best? They've had loads of 2nds, but only the odd, sporadic, random 1st.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

In all fairness there is more improvement there than I expected, but still, given how long he's had Arsenal at 2nd best in the country, why hasn't he ever really advanced them to undisputed best? They've had loads of 2nds, but only the odd, sporadic, random 1st.

Unbeaten in a season isn't undisputed best? The answer, of course, is Abramovich. No one can compete with a billion dollars.

(also, Arsenal have had limited resources due to lack of success in the European Cups. This is mostly due to the manager, but it gives a negative-feedback loop - lack of money -> less competitive -> even less money. Part of the reason why I don't really care too much about football any more.)

 

[Tom Halsey]

Unbeaten in a season isn't undisputed best? The answer, of course, is Abramovich. No one can compete with a billion dollars.

(also, Arsenal have had limited resources due to lack of success in the European Cups. This is mostly due to the manager, but it gives a negative-feedback loop - lack of money -> less competitive -> even less money. Part of the reason why I don't really care too much about football any more.)

Undisputed best over a period of time - one season that was a flash in the pan means nothing in the long run.

Given Wenger's inflated reputation for a bargain (which is true, but is down to scouts and not Wenger) you'd have thought that they'd have had success at the European Cup anyway...

 

[sledger]

bar the man utd side that won the champions league, their champions league record in the last few seasons has been dodgy, certainly nothing substantially better than arsenals.

 

[sledger]

And finishing place alone does not determine how good a manager is, because, as I've said, Wenger inherited a very good team, whereas Ferguson inherited a team in mid-table mediocrity.

as hakon has said, that is laughable.

 

[Tom Halsey]

So, then, what indicates that Wenger didn't inherit a good team? Inconsistent yes, but their placings were considerably better than Ferguson's were when he took over (IIRC Fat Ron had looked like he was going to get us relegated or very close to it in 1986 until Fergie took over).

 

[Tom Halsey]

bar the man utd side that won the champions league, their champions league record in the last few seasons has been dodgy, certainly nothing substantially better than arsenals.

I agree, and that's because Ferguson is past it.

 

[sledger]

So, then, what indicates that Wenger didn't inherit a good team? Inconsistent yes, but their placings were considerably better than Ferguson's were when he took over (IIRC Fat Ron had looked like he was going to get us relegated or very close to it in 1986 until Fergie took over).

the team he inherited was "good", capable of mid table / upper half of the table finish, it were wengers signings in key areas that made any real sucess possible, i dont refute the fact that wenger inherited a reasonable side, but to suggest that sucess would have been achieved without any influence from wenger at all is a shade.....questionable.

 

[sledger]

I agree, and that's because Ferguson is past it.

so what exactly in your opinion means that his ability is much reduced from what it once was?

 

[superkingdave]

So, then, what indicates that Wenger didn't inherit a good team? Inconsistent yes, but their placings were considerably better than Ferguson's were when he took over (IIRC Fat Ron had looked like he was going to get us relegated or very close to it in 1986 until Fergie took over).

and his early seasons were hardly that great were they?

 

[Tom Halsey]

and his early seasons were hardly that great were they?

That's because he rebuilt the team. He was winning the Premiership consistently within 7 years. Wenger has had nearly 10 years now and has never won it consistently.

 

[Tom Halsey]

so what exactly in your opinion means that his ability is much reduced from what it once was?

His age, strange decisions, constant over-reliance on mind games nowadays (more than he used to).

 

[sledger]

whats any of that got to do on his ability to manage a team?

 

[Tom Halsey]

the team he inherited was "good", capable of mid table / upper half of the table finish, it were wengers signings in key areas that made any real sucess possible, i dont refute the fact that wenger inherited a reasonable side, but to suggest that sucess would have been achieved without any influence from wenger at all is a shade.....questionable.

Oh I don't deny that Wenger did improve Arsenal, but I think the improvement is a bit overrated.

Ferguson improved United far more.

 

[sledger]

That's because he rebuilt the team. He was winning the Premiership consistently within 7 years. Wenger has had nearly 10 years now and has never won it consistently

how many times in that same ten year period have man utd won the premiership title consistantly? once.

 

[sledger]

Oh I don't deny that Wenger did improve Arsenal, but I think the improvement is a bit overrated.

Ferguson improved United far more.

seeing as there is no way of verifying that, i am afraid to say that is a totally meaningless statement.

 

[Tom Halsey]

whats any of that got to do on his ability to manage a team?

No-one at his age is going to be as good as they once were.

Strange decisions has got everything to do with managing a team.

Relying on mind-games all the time just shows that you're not tactically good enough, you've got to hope to win something by getting at them mentally.

 

[Tom Halsey]

seeing as there is no way of verifying that, i am afraid to say that is a totally meaningless statement.

Erm, try League positions, before and after.