*Official* England in South Africa Thread

[Link]

He hasn NOT got the technique to succeed at Test level. You don't need to see 2 balls to decide that.

Youre right you need to see many more.

Wait there, youre judging players on technique. How about Trescothick, Sehwag, Gibbs, Lara, Chanderpaul, Cairns, Inzimam are only some of the successful players without textbook techniques.

 

[tooextracool]

He was still never going to stay around that long.

why not?
if mcgrath can score a 50 then ntini and steyn can bat 15 overs with a recognized batsman at the other end.
it might have been near impossible to win, my comment was exaggerated simply to describe how poorly harmison was bowling at the time.

 

[Scaly piscine]

McGrath was batting against extremely rubbish bowling from a mentally shattered side and he wasn't trying to heave every ball for 6.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

He hasn NOT got the technique to succeed at Test level. You don't need to see 2 balls to decide that.

That's pretty ignorant. Technique does not equal international success.

 

[Link]

exactly

 

[tooextracool]

McGrath was batting against extremely rubbish bowling from a mentally shattered side and he wasn't trying to heave every ball for 6.

please remind me what harmison was bowling....
and mind you vettori is far from rubbish. ntini isnt as poor as you make him out to be. he averages more than mcgrath does and he is no mug with the bat.it was an extremely flat wicket, while i expect england to have won i wouldnt put it down as though they were robbed. SA could quite easily have survived.

 

[tooextracool]

That's pretty ignorant. Technique does not equal international success.

perhaps not, but if you have a rubbish technique, i dont care how good an eye you have, you wont succeed at the international level.

 

[Scaly piscine]

That was one Harmison over and Ntini still needed luck to survive it, McGrath is a much better batsman than he used to be so quoting his career average is pointless. Vettori isn't any more likely to get anyone out in a few overs than any of the English seamers.

 

[Tom Halsey]

That's pretty ignorant. Technique does not equal international success.

Indeed, technique does not = success. However, bad technique does = failure.

 

[tooextracool]

That was one Harmison over and Ntini still needed luck to survive it, McGrath is a much better batsman than he used to be so quoting his career average is pointless. Vettori isn't any more likely to get anyone out in a few overs than any of the English seamers.

just look at the game, how many of those english bowlers looked liked taking wickets on that pitch? giles was bowling poorly, jones was accurate for a while but never looked like taking wickets, neither was hoggard. harmison was bowling progressively worse.
af far as that being one harmison over, it was one ntini over too, i highly doubt that he would have continued to bat like that otherwise. as far as mcgrath being a better batsman is concerned, i seriously doubt hes good enough to score a 50, let alone survive 80 balls without a respectable batter at the other end. and if you think vettori looked less likely to take wickets than any england bowler in that series then you obviously werent watching closely enough.

 

[Scaly piscine]

England didn't ever look massively like they were gonna get anyone out in 2nd innings, but they still got 8 out in a little over 80 overs. Look at the strike rates, spinners inevitably take longer to get someone out. Ntini always bats like a headless chicken, he ain't gonna change that.

 

[Langeveldt]

cant judge a player on one test. he averages 80 odd in domestic cricket this year.

Van Jaarsveld has been butchering attacks for as long as I can remember.. There is little doubt as to who is the better player, and little secret as to why exactly, Amla is in the team..

 

[BoyBrumby]

Van Jaarsveld has been butchering attacks for as long as I can remember.. There is little doubt as to who is the better player, and little secret as to why exactly, Amla is in the team..

The situation is totally ar$e-about-face. Surely the whole idea should be the best player regardless of skin colour. Talk about the sins of the father being visited upon the son!

I mean, God knows I'm no expert (although you wouldn't know it to hear me after half a dozen Stellas!), but it's obvious that Amla has a very serious problem in his initial trigger movement. It makes him prime candidate for LBWs early on.

 

[wpdavid]

Van Jaarsveld has been butchering attacks for as long as I can remember.. There is little doubt as to who is the better player, and little secret as to why exactly, Amla is in the team..

... presumably you're referring to VJ's failure to make any sort of impact in his tests to date? You could argue he's been unlucky, but given that many of his tests have been against pretty weak attacks, it's his own fault he hasn't cemented his place. Given that the first class averages of VJ and Amla are pretty similar, why is there little doubt as to who is the better player? I'm certainly in no position to argue a definite case either way, but I surprised to see the race card being played so readily. What would be reading about Steyn's rapid elevation and subsequent performances if he was (thinks for a polite way of saying this, fails, so says it anyway) black?

 

[BoyBrumby]

... presumably you're referring to VJ's failure to make any sort of impact in his tests to date? You could argue he's been unlucky, but given that many of his tests have been against pretty weak attacks, it's his own fault he hasn't cemented his place. Given that the first class averages of VJ and Amla are pretty similar, why is there little doubt as to who is the better player? I'm certainly in no position to argue a definite case either way, but I surprised to see the race card being played so readily. What would be reading about Steyn's rapid elevation and subsequent performances if he was (thinks for a polite way of saying this, fails, so says it anyway) black?

I can see the point you're making & I will state now that I think the idea behind the quote-unquote quota of "previously disadvantaged" ethnic players is wholly admirable. It's a measure designed to help redress the balance after 40-odd years of apartheid & decades of unofficial SA policy before that.

As such it's hard to criticise it without seeming a bit of a racist buffoon, but looking at the form shown by Amla & Van Jaarsveld in the 2nd test objectively one has to conclude that VJ is more deserving of retention. Imagine the uproar if their form were reversed & Amla dropped?

I think cases of (what to call it?) "positive discrimination" (an oxymoron if ever there was) such as this only give more ammunition to the still extant darker forces in SA society.

But, for my tuppence worth, I'd pick Andrew Hall anyway!

 

[badgerhair]

looking at the form shown by Amla & Van Jaarsveld in the 2nd test objectively one has to conclude that VJ is more deserving of retention. Imagine the uproar if their form were reversed & Amla dropped?

I think cases of (what to call it?) "positive discrimination" (an oxymoron if ever there was) such as this only give more ammunition to the still extant darker forces in SA society.

I don't see it as obvious that van Jaarsveld, whose nine Tests have so far yielded pretty modest results, should be retained ahead of a bloke who made a muck of his debut appearance, as have so many players in the past. Dropping guys after they made a ricket of their first Test was one of the successless policies followed by England during the Nineties, and it would be rather sad to see SA going down the road of proven failure like that.

To me, the first sign that England were serious about becoming a good side came on the last tour of SA, when Chris Adams played all five Tests. I now learn from Hussain's autobiog that Fletcher had doubts about Adams after the first net session of the tour, which makes it all the more pleasing that they stuck with him for five games.

Not because I'm a great fan of picking rubbish players like Adams, but because of the huge signal it sent to every aspiring English cricketer. "You won't be dropped just because you made a mistake or two first time out. When we pick you, you'll get a reasonable run of a few games in which to show what you can do." The subsequent ignoral of Adams sent the further message that if you do get a decent chance and you screw it up, you can just about forget about ever being called up again.

I don't see that van Jaarsveld has done enough with his opportunities to make a convincing case that he's an authentic Test player. It would be poor policy to stick with his mediocrity if Amla has the potential to be better.

I quite agree with all those who thought Amla looked hopelessly out of his depth at Durban, but Gooch looked completely useless on debut too.

Which of them to pick for Cape Town seems to me to be a 50-50 call. On good cricketing grounds.

And the forward-looking pick is Amla.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Langeveldt]

The situation is totally ar$e-about-face. Surely the whole idea should be the best player regardless of skin colour. Talk about the sins of the father being visited upon the son!

In order to know why this whole thing is going on, you have to be pretty familiar with how modern South Africa works.. The race cards don't just get drawn in sports selection, it is in practically every facet of employment at the moment..
It's one of the most beautiful and diverse places I have had the pleasure of being in, but there are huge inequalities in pretty much everything that goes on.. The ANC's way of tackling this has been to promote the interests of the communities who have been so persecuted previously. Of course, there are pros and there are cons, but if it creates a stronger SA in 10 years time, then so be it.
You of course will here the race card being banded around by grumpy SA sports fans, but it isnt really that significant in the grand scheme of things.

 

[BoyBrumby]

In order to know why this whole thing is going on, you have to be pretty familiar with how modern South Africa works.. The race cards don't just get drawn in sports selection, it is in practically every facet of employment at the moment..
It's one of the most beautiful and diverse places I have had the pleasure of being in, but there are huge inequalities in pretty much everything that goes on.. The ANC's way of tackling this has been to promote the interests of the communities who have been so persecuted previously. Of course, there are pros and there are cons, but if it creates a stronger SA in 10 years time, then so be it.
You of course will here the race card being banded around by grumpy SA sports fans, but it isnt really that significant in the grand scheme of things.

I guess there are bigger issues than solely cricket to consider. &, of course as Mike (badgerhair) points out it could be a cricketing decision.

Wouldn't have been my cricketing decision, mind....

 

[BoyBrumby]

"I reckon even you would bat above him"

Barry Richards to Gus Fraser while in the urinals on the ability of Thami Tsolekile with the willow

I know it's cruel, but it made me smile!

 

[Langeveldt]

"I reckon even you would bat above him"

Barry Richards to Gus Fraser while in the urinals on the ability of Thami Tsolekile with the willow

I know it's cruel, but it made me smile!

The truth hurts boet