as i have mentioned almost a million times in the past, we cannot simply assume that just because he has a high average in any of those countries that he actually succeeded when the ball was swinging. certainly anyone even considering the idea that the ball was swinging in sydney 03/04, is quite ludicrous.chicane said:
do you not understand the word 'subcontinent'?viktor said:
as i have already mentioned earlier, the subcontinent consists of more than 1 country. i dont doubt that flintoff needs to prove himself with that bat in the subcontinent, or rather anywhere outside england, but with the ball he has put in decent performances in SL and even his bowling performance in India is hardly anything poor.viktor said:I wouldn't call a strike rate of 92 at an avg of 31.5 proving himself in India especially if you add the 5.2 batting avg. his economy rate was good though.
bowling filtered 3 92 189 6 4/50 4/50 31.50 2.05 92.0 0 0
batting filtered 3 26 18 5.20 0 0
Look, I am not knocking any of Flintoff's achievements or denying his position as the premier allrounder in world cricket. Its just that in India he hasn't turned in the kind of performances that you would expect from him. He might just have been doing the job that was asked of him; push the batsmen back and choke up the runs, so that Nasser could attack with Giles at the other end
yes failed miserably, i think you need to look at every single innings in those conditions to make a conclusion. i have looked at every innings he has played in seamer friendly conditions in detail, and i have found 2 innings in his 16 year career, in which he actually succeeded, one was his 51 in NZ and the other was his 90 odd in bangalore against England.chicane said:
For practical purposes, Subcontinent = India, and to a lesser extent Pakistan.tooextracool said:
india is just one of 3 countries in the subcontinent. when a bowler succeeds in the other 2 it is unfair on him to call him a failure in the subcontinent, especially when you consider the similarity in conditions between the 3 different countries.viktor said:
did someone really say that? i dont remember seeing that but if they did then you are quite right.chicane said:
The pitches are sometimes similar, but there is a world of difference in the overall atmosphere between Sri Lanka and India.tooextracool said:
If he is to be considered as an all-rounder and you agree that Flintoff hasn't proved his batting outside England then doesn't that back up my claim that he hasn't completely proved himself in the subcontinent?tooextracool said:
so all these countries prepared seam friendly conditions only twice in all those games india have played, otherwise they have played on belters to perfectly suit the indian batting line-up especially sachin tendulkar??tooextracool said:
wow how silly is that? learn from india, we always prepare horrible pitches to suit our spinners and subdue greats like ponting.you cannot be serious. Sri Lanka has nearly as good a track record at home compared to India and are definetly a difficult proposition. further even if pakistan arent that brilliant, succeeding in those conditions is still considered a major accomplishment. either way if someone proves himself in 2 out of the 3 countries you cannot claim that he is a failure in the subcontinent, because that is not true whatsoever. he maybe a failure in india, but not in the other countries. further if hes only failed in one series in india(as flintoff has), it is ludicrous to say that he is completely incapable of bowling in india especially when hes succeeded with the ball in SL.silentstriker said:
anybody who plays for 16 years is going to amass a significant number of runs anyways. some players are better at cashing in on flat wickets than others, and tendulkar is one of themsilentstriker said:
i did not call lillee an all time great, nor do i intend to. i have never seen lillee bowl except on short highlights and reserve judgment about players like him who i have never seen perform.silentstriker said:
well you did seem to be indicating that flintoff was a failure in India, i apologize if i read incorrectly.viktor said:
i think we've been down this road before, and i think ive given you all the facts about tendulkar in the past. i dont see the point of doing it again.chicane said:
