***Official*** England in India

[Sanz]

Freddie has had only one excellent season as an allrounder (2004/05), rest of the seasons he has been very ordinary with the bat. He was crap as a bowler until 2003, but I will agree that he is one of the top 3 bowlers in the world right now.

 

[PY]

Sorry I meant if he succeeds in this series it'll go a long way in proving that he's 'on his way'. If he has a killer series and averages 18 with the ball taking 24 wickets, it'll still not make him an all-time great as you have shown. Longevity is vital. He hasn't been dominant for anywhere near long enough, and he needs to do much more with the bat all over the world.

Definitely, I'm still puzzled by his performances abroad (bar couple of innings) as he's shown he can play orthodox innings when under pressure as well as a biffer but not as consistently as I'd like.

I reckon it's because we're killing him with the bowling load which is a direct result of him being awesome with the ball. It's a conundrum really!

 

[tooextracool]

looking at the australia series....

148* at sydney - from the match report -

The weather has cleared here and it is fine and light winds
with an estimated maximum temperature of 24C. Of course, we
have had rain on 3 of the last 4 days and you'd have to
suspect that both captains will want to ask the opposition to
bat should they win the toss.

With 4 seam bowlers, and only Shastri to bowl spin, it wasn't
surprising that Azharuddin decided to send Australia in.
Border didn't seem very disappointed that he will get to bowl
last.

hmmm.....moving on....

114 at perth...some commentary

*Prabhakar is getting swing again*

*Another lifting ball
from McDermott, again swinging in as it passed, again let go.*

these two games against quality fast bowlers. then...

116, 52 sydney.....after loads of rain...

*In conditions conducive to swing bowling, Javagal Srinath (4/130) beat the edge of the bat at least twice in the first over of the day, and similarly false strokes were in frequent evidence as the first half hour unfolded.*

61 adelaide...

*On a pitch which seemed to be offering more encouragement to bowlers than is traditionally the case in Adelaide*

flat wickets? failed miserably?

again you can only look at the conditions when Tendulkar was batting. pointing swing out in the first half hour of the day for example has no relation to the conditions that tendulkar faced.

 

[chicane]

again you can only look at the conditions when Tendulkar was batting. pointing swing out in the first half hour of the day for example has no relation to the conditions that tendulkar faced.

its hardly like all swing died out by the time sachin came to bat. infact the rest of the batting collapsed around him in so many of those knocks! And dravid, laxman, azharuddin etc. can handle swing cant they?

 

[tooextracool]

Freddie has had only one excellent season as an allrounder (2004/05), rest of the seasons he has been very ordinary with the bat. He was crap as a bowler until 2003, but I will agree that he is one of the top 3 bowlers in the world right now.

hes actually had 2 very good seasons with the bat. but again you have to realise that an all rounder can still be a very good one without being a consistent batsman. Ian Botham only ever averaged over 40 in a two years in his entire career(and one of them was 39.80). most all rounders dont maintain consistent performances with bat and ball every season.

 

[tooextracool]

its hardly like all swing died out by the time sachin came to bat. infact the rest of the batting collapsed around him in so many of those knocks! And dravid, laxman, azharuddin etc. can handle swing cant they?

Dravid can yes, Laxman can but we know how inconsistent hes been over the years, and azharuddin is also the same. further azhar averaged nearly 20 runs more at home than he did abroad.

 

[Sanz]

Name one fast bowler Flintoff faced in his career who were as good as the attacks Botham, Imran, Kapil and Hadlee faced throughout their career. Yes Flintoff is a top bowler right now, but who is no. 2 fast bowler ?? Makhya Nitini, tells us how many great bowlers are there today.
Please no mention of Mcgrath, he is either not fit or done with his career..

Besides even the worst bowler of the 4A's has close to 25 fifers, Freddie has 2 and when was the last time Freddie won or saved a test match with his batting ?

 

[marc71178]

*Rues the existence of a swear filter*

(also.... )

I assume bread-related words will be allowed again?

 

[chicane]

Dravid can yes, Laxman can but we know how inconsistent hes been over the years, and azharuddin is also the same. further azhar averaged nearly 20 runs more at home than he did abroad.

well it was the conditions up against a quality attack that did them in....and tendulkar stood out and shone.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Jones--> Not played in India/Pak--> Not yet world-class
Dhoni---> Not played outside India/Pak ---> Not yet world-class
Pathan--> Not yet proven in non-swinging conditions --> Not yet world-class

The difference is playing in India/Pak would only constitute around one tenth of his career, at most. The other two would consitute way more of the relevant players' careers.

This is part of the problem with the arguments about double standards earlier comparing players who've done badly in the odd Test in Asia with those that haven't done anything outside of Asia.

 

[Pratters]

yes failed miserably, i think you need to look at every single innings in those conditions to make a conclusion. i have looked at every innings he has played in seamer friendly conditions in detail, and i have found 2 innings in his 16 year career, in which he actually succeeded, one was his 51 in NZ and the other was his 90 odd in bangalore against England.

I refuse to believe

1) You have looked at every inning Tendulkar has played.
2) Whichever innings you have looked, you have looked enough to gauge conditions.

You will come up with your own parameters for x is good seam conditions y isn't. Put failures into one basket and say looked this is seam condition. He failed. Voila.

Did you watch Tendulkar hit against South Africa? To point out specific flaws in the better batsmen is okay. To make expansive statements like 'player x cannot play well in seam conditions' and/or to imply the same is just stupid.

 

[Sanz]

hes actually had 2 very good seasons with the bat. but again you have to realise that an all rounder can still be a very good one without being a consistent batsman. Ian Botham only ever averaged over 40 in a two years in his entire career(and one of them was 39.80). most all rounders dont maintain consistent performances with bat and ball every season.

Any guess on the quality of bowlers Bothan faced..and the bowlers Freddie has faced. Averaging 39 in an era where a batsman of Richards caliber scored 50 is much better than averaging 32 in an era of Sourav Ganguly averaging 42.

After 56 tests - Botham was averaging 36.9 with bat, Kapil 31, with the ball Botham 24, Kapil 29 . Freddie is no where near Botham in terms of ability and close to Kapil in overall performance, but must keep in mind that Kapil bowled majority of his career without any support and in the subcontinent where Flintoff doesn't do much better.

 

[marc71178]

Freddie has had only one excellent season as an allrounder (2004/05)

If all that is true, please explain his record for his last 30 Tests:

1750 runs @ 38.04, 120 wickets @ 24.90

 

[Sanz]

hes actually had 2 very good seasons with the bat.

Well how about having one year (2004) as only good year with the bat.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Any guess on the quality of bowlers Bothan faced..and the bowlers Freddie has faced. Averaging 39 in an era where a batsman of Richards caliber scored 50 is much better than averaging 32 in an era of Sourav Ganguly averaging 42.

After 56 tests - Botham was averaging 36.9 with bat, Kapil 31, with the ball Botham 24, Kapil 29 . Freddie is no where near Botham in terms of ability and close to Kapil in overall performance, but must keep in mind that Kapil bowled majority of his career without any support and in the subcontinent where Flintoff doesn't do much better.

Whilst I agree Fred is not yet an all-time great, I fail to see the relevance of quoting statistics which includes periods when he was rubbish at the start of his career (Fred's stats are incredibly distorted because of this). His averages in the last 2 years (since he's been a world-class allrounder) are much better.

 

[Pratters]

and by atmosphere you mean the crowd?
honestly these are minor things and even if they were to affect any player,

I don't know if the poster meant crowd. But I am surprised you don't know Playing in an empty stadium and a full Eden Gardens are completely different ball games.

 

[tooextracool]

Name one fast bowler Flintoff faced in his career who were as good as the attacks Botham, Imran, Kapil and Hadlee faced throughout their career.
Yes Flintoff is a top bowler right now, but who is no. 2 fast bowler ?? Makhya Nitini, tells us how many great bowlers are there today.
Please no mention of Mcgrath, he is either not fit or done with his career..

to understate mcgrath is the biggest mistake you can possibly make and there is absolutely no evidence that his career is over. and while i agree with you that the quality of bowlers has declined, flintoff has played pollock, nel, vaas and shoaib. they might not be as great as the fast bowlers the big 4 played, but conversely let me ask you this questions. Did any of the big 4 play spin bowlers of the quality of Warne, Murali or kumble?

Besides even the worst bowler of the 4A's has close to 25 fifers, Freddie has 2 and when was the last time Freddie won or saved a test match with his batting ?

5fers as ive said a billion times before have no relevanace whatsoever. its glaringly obvious that pitches are much flatter now than they've ever been before. further if someone is taking 4fers its still quite valuable especially if hes taking it at a good average.
as far as freddie winning or saving a test match is concerned, heres one:
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1776
heres another:
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1780

heres one where he was responsible for saving a game:
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1714

and more:
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1726
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1729
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1754

 

[Neil Pickup]

Can we remember this is an official thread?

 

[tooextracool]

I refuse to believe

1) You have looked at every inning Tendulkar has played.
2) Whichever innings you have looked, you have looked enough to gauge conditions.

You will come up with your own parameters for x is good seam conditions y isn't. Put failures into one basket and say looked this is seam condition. He failed. Voila.

Did you watch Tendulkar hit against South Africa? To point out specific flaws in the better batsmen is okay. To make expansive statements like 'player x cannot play well in seam conditions' and/or to imply the same is just stupid.

i have watched a large proportion of the tests in which tendulkar has played live anyways, the ones i havent watched(i.e all the ones before 92/93 and a few thereafter), ive managed to get extensive highlights for and have been able to guage the conditions from them.
i have watched his performances in SA, and i can assure you that a major reason why his 169 is considered to be such a great innings is because of the ineptness of the rest of the batting card. further even when they were 5/58, out of the 5 wickets, one was a run out, one was venkatesh prasad, and one was dravid as an opener(and we know how well that experiement turned out). so it wasnt really great bowling or the conditions that put India on the backfoot.

 

[tooextracool]

Well how about having one year (2004) as only good year with the bat.

he averaged 40 with the bat in 2003.