***Official*** England in India

[chicane]

and so what if waqar and wasim werent in their primes.....its not like jones can be called better than them even then.

 

[chicane]

Regardless that is of little relevance because the taff has gotten Ponting out twice cheaply - and honestly, do you think Sachin *now* is better than Ponting?

sachin might find form anytime.....and in form sachin is better than ponting.....atleast definitely in india.

 

[Scaly piscine]

and so what if waqar and wasim werent in their primes.....its not like jones can be called better than them even then.

Actually it is like that, especially if you saw how he bowled in the Ashes.

 

[Sunny Mehta]

what happened to the dark blue India ODI shirts?

I have seen it, but why are the team not wearing it during games?

 

[superkingdave]

apparently Nimbus is no longer in talks with sky so it looks like it will either be on Sony, Zee of Setanta.

if you ask me this company should stick to making brooms

 

[chicane]

Actually it is like that, especially if you saw how he bowled in the Ashes.

i know hes good.....but...

 

[tooextracool]

Well if you're going to twist the reality of events to suit your own arguments then there's not really much point in me debating with you.

twisting reality?
how am i twisting reality when im pointing out a fact that bell averages more with the bat and ball in every form of the game compared to collingwood? similarly how is pointing out that Read was the better batsman and keeper statistically or otherwise than geraint jones, not to mention that he performed the series before he was dropped? or for that matter plunketts poor domestic record is also a fact, and his international bowling career thus far verifies why his record is so poor.
believe it or not there is not a single argument in favor of any of your cases, and you know it.

 

[tooextracool]

ok. we could split hairs on that one. The point I was trying to make is that Tendulkar is capable of playing high quality swing bowling. I thnk you would agree, maybe not unequivovally (inspite of your sig.).

i dont think there is much evidence of tendulkar being capable of playing high quality swing bowling, and almost everytime hes been confronted with it hes failed miserably.

 

[tooextracool]

He's done little in the last few years to suggest he can though.

indeed he hasnt, but as i said earlier, he still has time to learn, udal whether or not he is a marginally better bowler or not doesnt have a future with england and we will almost certainly never see him in an england shirt after the tour of india.

 

[tooextracool]

Collingwood went as the closest like for like cover for Flintoff.

Bear in mind that Bell made his debut against the Windies, did nothing wrong and then didn't make the touring party.

collingwood's bowling is so bad that its as good as non-existent. certainly i can never see how collingwood can ever be even remotely close to a replacement for flintoff.

 

[tooextracool]

Absolutely valid point. I, neither said nor implied that either of the pair were. In fact what I am saying is that if just as Pathan and Dhoni haven't been proven outside the subcontinent, Flintoff and Jones haven't proven themselves inside it.

flintoff has definetly proven himself with the ball in the sub continent and while Jones has not exactly proven himself, he did have quite some success on the A tour to India in 04.

 

[tooextracool]

1. Well its not as if Jones doesn't have the ability to get his average up in ODI's after all he is a better batsman that read..

where does this 'better batsman' come from? there is absolutely no evidence anywhere for such a claim. Jones is the better test batsman perhaps, but i can argue all day about why test and ODI batting is completely different. Chris read in his short stint in ODI cricket showed that he was not only capable of playing the sensible innings of hitting the ball into gaps, but was also capable of hammering the ball all over the park if necessary. jones has shown that he can do neither.

2. true but it wouldn't have made much sense having 2 keepers in the team in both form of the game.

no the argument is that chris read should be in the ODI side ahead of Jones and prior.

3. Its not all about stats, fletcher and co clearly saw potential in Plunks bowling & we all saw it in Pakistan

no one saw potential with the ball in pakistan except you. most saw him getting slaughtered in all games bar one.

4. True but, england would never do that...

which bears testiment to the quality of our national selectors.

 

[chicane]

i dont think there is much evidence of tendulkar being capable of playing high quality swing bowling, and almost everytime hes been confronted with it hes failed miserably.

oh really?

Tendulkar's record in Australia

Avg - 54.15 4X100 3X50

148* - sydney - vs mcdermott, reid and hughes

114 - perth - mcdermott, hughes, reiffel, moody, whitney - india 272 all out

61 - adelaide - mcgrath, fleming, kasper - india 285 all out

116, 52 - melbourne - mcgrath, fleming, lee - india 238/195 all out

45 - sydney - mcgrath, fleming, lee - india 150 all out

241*, 60*, sydney - lee, gillespie, bracken - india 705

In england......

avg - 71.6 4X100 4X50

68, 119* - manchester - malcolm, fraser, hemmings, lewis

122 - birmingham - lewis, cork, mullaly, irani

177, 74 - nottingham - ""

34, 92 - nottingham - harmison, flintoff, cork, hoggard

193 - leeds - flintoff, caddick, hoggard, tudor

54 - the oval - hoggard, caddick, cork, tudor

in new zealand....

avg 41.5 100X1 50X3

88 - napier - hadlee, morrison, snedden, bracewell

47, 113 - wellington - doull, cairns, nash

67 - hamilton - ""

51 - wellington - bond, tuffey, oram

failed miserably?

 

[tooextracool]

Kind of funny how Sub-continent players have to prove themselves outside sub-continent to be considered good players while players from outside sub-continent who struggle their can be considered one of greats of modern area.

how many greats do you know off who failed in the subcontinent?

 

[viktor]

flintoff has definetly proven himself with the ball in the sub continent and while Jones has not exactly proven himself, he did have quite some success on the A tour to India in 04.

I wouldn't call a strike rate of 92 at an avg of 31.5 proving himself in India especially if you add the 5.2 batting avg. his economy rate was good though.

bowling filtered 3 92 189 6 4/50 4/50 31.50 2.05 92.0 0 0
batting filtered 3 26 18 5.20 0 0

Look, I am not knocking any of Flintoff's achievements or denying his position as the premier allrounder in world cricket. Its just that in India he hasn't turned in the kind of performances that you would expect from him. He might just have been doing the job that was asked of him; push the batsmen back and choke up the runs, so that Nasser could attack with Giles at the other end

Simon Jones, as you yourself admit, hasn't exactly proven himself. What he has done in the A-team, is but an indicator of what he might be capable of...just as Dhoni and Pathan's performances might be indicators of what they might be able to deliver.

 

[tooextracool]

They admit it. Waqar and Wasim both said that they were astonished to see a 16 year old boy SMASH them. Anyways, if you think Sachin can't play reverse swing, there is not much I can say, except that you are in a very very small minority.

thats very questionable. for one waqar was making his debut in that series, and i dont know off too many bowlers that start off in their prime. wasim while he had been playing long before that, based on his record at least, it appears that he only started to bowl consistently well after that. and its hardly fair to say that sachin smashes them all over the place while he was averaged 35 in the series.

 

[tooextracool]

Waqar wasn't, Wasim was.

thats doubtful, wasim was definetly at least well short of his best pace and while he was still performing somewhat better than waqar towards the end of his career, he was still far more inconsistent to be considered to be in his prime.

 

[tooextracool]

and so what if waqar and wasim werent in their primes.....its not like jones can be called better than them even then.

no one said that he is.

 

[tooextracool]

Actually it is like that, especially if you saw how he bowled in the Ashes.

have you seen waqar in his prime? i somehow doubt that you have.

 

[viktor]

how many greats do you know off who failed in the subcontinent?

Of the top of my head...
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Ricky Ponting