matthew hayden or brian lara?

[Richard]

Really, flatter than the subcontinent even? I find that very doubtful.

Far, FAR flatter.
Even though subcontinent pitches have been flatter than normal recently, there've still been the share of turners.
Which have massively outnumbered the number of bowler-friendly pitches in Australia since 2001\02 - which you could count on one hand.

 

[Mister Wright]

But Gilchrist has come in in totally different circumstances.
And sometimes Ponting has.
And Langer missed 4 Tests in 2001, and he batted three before The Oval.
No-one has had circumstances comparable to Hayden in the last 4 years.

How on earth is another batsman going to face the exact same conditions and the exact same circumstances? You are just clutching at straws now.

 

[tooextracool]

Because no other players have played enough matches on enough good pitches against enough poor bowling-attacks.

or rather hes as good as anyone else when it comes to scoring runs against poor bowling attacks on very good batting wickets. and because doing that doesnt require much skill, its doesnt make him a great player for doing so.

 

[tooextracool]

Hoggard and Anderson will surely have developed into good bowlers by that time.

man you really can crack a good joke once in a while.

 

[tooextracool]

Really, flatter than the subcontinent even? I find that very doubtful.

gee where have you been?

 

[Richard]

man you really can crack a good joke once in a while.

Especially when it was a year ago.
Anderson wasn't great a year ago - but he sure wasn't as bad as he is now, and there was a possibility he'd get better rather than worse.

 

[Richard]

or rather hes as good as anyone else when it comes to scoring runs against poor bowling attacks on very good batting wickets. and because doing that doesnt require much skill, its doesnt make him a great player for doing so.

He's better than most - but equally there are plenty of batsmen of yesteryear who'd probably have done what he's done if they'd played enough, on enough flat pitches.

 

[Richard]

How on earth is another batsman going to face the exact same conditions and the exact same circumstances? You are just clutching at straws now.

There is precisely zero chance of anyone outside a top-three scoring 1000 runs in four consecutive calender-years, they don't bat enough or have the chance to bat for long enough.
Before the mid-90s, there was no chance of anyone doing it, because no 4 consecutive years would contain enough matches.
Before 2001\02 season, there weren't enough flat pitches or poor enough attacks, either. For some teams, there still aren't enough.
There is just other 1 person who has batted in Australia's top-three as much as Hayden in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004, and that's Justin Langer (even he's missed 4 Tests).
And Justin Langer may be an out-and-out flat-track bully (he's a bit better than Hayden seaming conditions, but nothing like as good on a turner) but he's nowhere near as good at scoring as heavily as Hayden when the pitch is just aching to give-up it's runs.

 

[tooextracool]

Especially when it was a year ago.
Anderson wasn't great a year ago - but he sure wasn't as bad as he is now, and there was a possibility he'd get better rather than worse.

anderson was always bad, its just that it took people a while to realise that he was getting wickets with rubbish balls on seamer friendly wickets.

 

[Richard]

Indeed, only once did Anderson bowl particularly well in a real Test-match, this one (which we all know was one of the worst pitches of recent years - if not the worst) and he bowled OK in the second-innings here (on a much flatter pitch), though he was boosted by 2 of the last 3 wickets.
Nonetheless, the amount of swing he can generate and the fact that, on odd occasions, he can totally polarise his awfully wayward tendencies and bowl with incredible accuracy mean he still has potential in my eyes.
He's currently totally rubbish and has rarely been anything else. He was picked for Test-cricket too early - not an unusual tendency.
Hopefully it won't have inflicted perminant damage.

 

[Mister Wright]

There is precisely zero chance of anyone outside a top-three scoring 1000 runs in four consecutive calender-years, they don't bat enough or have the chance to bat for long enough.
Before the mid-90s, there was no chance of anyone doing it, because no 4 consecutive years would contain enough matches.
Before 2001\02 season, there weren't enough flat pitches or poor enough attacks, either. For some teams, there still aren't enough.
There is just other 1 person who has batted in Australia's top-three as much as Hayden in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004, and that's Justin Langer (even he's missed 4 Tests).
And Justin Langer may be an out-and-out flat-track bully (he's a bit better than Hayden seaming conditions, but nothing like as good on a turner) but he's nowhere near as good at scoring as heavily as Hayden when the pitch is just aching to give-up it's runs.

Langer didn't do it & Ponting didn't do it, but Hayden did. Get over it, he is better than you claim. Martyn has as much chance as those three of scoring 1000 runs in 4 years in a row, and he may well do so.

 

[Richard]

Martyn who batted at six more often than not - and was totally out of form at one point - and missed quite a few Tests through injury?
Hayden did better than Ponting and Langer - wow, I still say they're both better batsmen when the ball's swinging and seaming (though Langer only slightly).
If the turning pitches (a few of them - several subcontinent tours in the respective years) had been seamers I'd willingly bet Ponting, not Hayden, would have achieved the feat.

 

[Mister Wright]

Martyn who batted at six more often than not - and was totally out of form at one point - and missed quite a few Tests through injury?
Hayden did better than Ponting and Langer - wow, I still say they're both better batsmen when the ball's swinging and seaming (though Langer only slightly).
If the turning pitches (a few of them - several subcontinent tours in the respective years) had been seamers I'd willingly bet Ponting, not Hayden, would have achieved the feat.

I was not talking about Martyn in the past - Martyn in the future.

 

[social]

Martyn who batted at six more often than not - and was totally out of form at one point - and missed quite a few Tests through injury?
Hayden did better than Ponting and Langer - wow, I still say they're both better batsmen when the ball's swinging and seaming (though Langer only slightly).
If the turning pitches (a few of them - several subcontinent tours in the respective years) had been seamers I'd willingly bet Ponting, not Hayden, would have achieved the feat.

Considering that the standard of bowling in the world is crap, the wickets are flat and the number of test matches that are played, it's amazing that it remains a relatively rare feat.

Or possibly, the players you mention are better than you give them credit for being.

 

[Richard]

I was not talking about Martyn in the past - Martyn in the future.

TBH I'll be a bit surprised if Martyn's still playing in 2008 - he can just about get away with his inconsistency at 32 - at 36? I don't think so, not in Australia, and not as a WAn. If he was from NSW, just maybe, but not a chance from anywhere else... the next NSW sensation will be in before you know it...

 

[Richard]

Considering that the standard of bowling in the world is crap, the wickets are flat and the number of test matches that are played, it's amazing that it remains a relatively rare feat.

Or possibly, the players you mention are better than you give them credit for being.

Or possibly doing what Hayden's done is not a particularly extraordinary feat, even if no-one else has managed it?

 

[Mister Wright]

Or possibly doing what Hayden's done is not a particularly extraordinary feat, even if no-one else has managed it?

Given that nobody else has done it makes it that much better.

 

[Mister Wright]

TBH I'll be a bit surprised if Martyn's still playing in 2008 - he can just about get away with his inconsistency at 32 - at 36? I don't think so, not in Australia, and not as a WAn. If he was from NSW, just maybe, but not a chance from anywhere else... the next NSW sensation will be in before you know it...

Perhaps, maybe 3 years in a row then.

 

[Richard]

Given that nobody else has done it makes it that much better.

Why?
If more people had had the chance in the past, many would undoubtedly have done it.

 

[Richard]

Perhaps, maybe 3 years in a row then.

Even that might be pushing it.
I'd not be surprised if he got 1000 next year, too - but with someone like Martyn things can change very fast and I really don't have a clue what he'll be doing in 2007.