matthew hayden or brian lara?

[Mister Wright]

ATM, yes, but I can't conceive that there haven't been hundreds of other players in the last 40 or 50 years who'd have been equally capable had they had the chance - as you say, it's not incredibly difficult by the standards of top players.

Yes, but they haven't, and Hayden has. Back in the 40s and 50s when the West Indies, South Africa & India started out they were just as bad or even worse than the Zimbabwean side that toured Australia, so they had been given the chance.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Yes, but they haven't, and Hayden has. Back in the 40s and 50s when the West Indies, South Africa & India started out they were just as bad or even worse than the Zimbabwean side that toured Australia, so they had been given the chance.

Do you mean Pakistan, rather than South Africa? South Africa started out in the 19th century in test cricket.

 

[Richard]

Yes, but they haven't, and Hayden has. Back in the 40s and 50s when the West Indies, South Africa & India started out they were just as bad or even worse than the Zimbabwean side that toured Australia, so they had been given the chance.

South Africa and West Indies started-out LONG before the 1950s and West Indies had a side then that was as good as most sides that have ever played.
Not to mention the fact that pitches as good as that WACA one in that match were few and far between in the '40s and '50s.
Anyway, I wasn't actually talking about the 380, more the 4 consecutive 1000s.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Not to mention the fact that pitches as good as that WACA one in that match were few and far between in the '40s and '50s.

Are you kidding? The pitches in the late 40s and especially in the early 50s are widely recognised as some of the most batsman friendly ever in test cricket. Certainly the only period in test history which rivals today for the regularity of flat test pitches.

 

[Richard]

I think you might be referring to the 1930s, there.

 

[marc71178]

2 inches - not even the width of a bat.
Given the adjustment that will take place, 2 inches won't cause good batsmen any trouble.

And how many bowlers over history have moved it more than that then?

2 inches is more than enough to defeat the batsman and take the edge.

 

[tooextracool]

I've said Jones doesn't have potential, where?

a) you called for his sacking not too long after his 1 poor test against the WI
b) everytime ive used the word potential and jones in the same sentence you've come up with the same pathetic argument about his not being accurate.

Jones most certainly did NOT show incredible accuracy throughout the SA series, he just sometimes bowled exceedingly accurately, sometimes very, very poorly..

with the exceedinly accurately being far more common than the very poorly.
very few bowlers can maintain accuracy in every spell of a series, even fewer can do it at the start of their career, even fewer than that can do it when they get dropped half the time.

I maintain that for both Jones or Anderson to improve their accuracy will be a very difficult task, and until both do I don't feel either are Test-class bowlers. Jones has got his share of wickets with rubbish deliveries, too.

rubbish, most of his wickets may not have come from wicket taking deliveries, but only a fool would say that hes got most of his wickets from rubbish deliveries.

 

[tooextracool]

Damien Martyn
Notice how often he veers between single-figure scores and half-centuries\centuries?

since the last ashes hes had 11 half centuries and 6 centuries, certainly good enough for any sane person. and the fact that on other occasions hes actually got 30s and 40s makes that even better.

 

[Richard]

He's not been Atapattu-inconsistent - but I never said he was.
Just more inconsistent than plenty.
Eg his 2001\02
Tell me that's not inconsistent?
Single-figure scores; 90 in 2 innings; 432 for thrice out; 2, duck, 11, duck.
Much more consistent for the next 2 seasons (consistently mediocre in 2003\04) then this season has been back to 2001\02.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

The word "inconsistent" usually means more than that a player simply varies between low scores and big ones. If Martyn varied between lean series and big ones, you might have a case, but scoring 5 and 3 in one test and a big hundred in the next is not enough to indicate any sort of consistency, merely that you got out cheaply in one game and not the next. Maybe you got a couple of good deliveries in the first game? The fact that he has averaged over 40 in every series in the past four years is indicative of his consistency - in fact there are few if any players in the world who can claim the same.

 

[Richard]

a) you called for his sacking not too long after his 1 poor test against the WI

No I didn't, I wasn't posting very much at that time.

b) everytime ive used the word potential and jones in the same sentence you've come up with the same pathetic argument about his not being accurate.

Yes, because it's true. It doesn't mean he doesn't have potential, though.

with the exceedinly accurately being far more common than the very poorly.
very few bowlers can maintain accuracy in every spell of a series, even fewer can do it at the start of their career, even fewer than that can do it when they get dropped half the time.

Jones has been dropped twice in his career - once after a very, very poor Test.
Jones veered between the two almost non-stop in South Africa:
First spell in first-innings of First Test shocking; second exemplary
Not especially good in second-innings of First Test
Appalling for most of first-innings of Second Test; not bad in second-innings
Applling for most of first-innings of Third Test; good in second-innings
Not really that good in first-innings of Fifth Test; not as bad as figures suggested in second-innings but not brilliant either

rubbish, most of his wickets may not have come from wicket taking deliveries, but only a fool would say that hes got most of his wickets from rubbish deliveries.

All right, not most, but still a reasonable amount. Anderson, too, got some from nothing-special deliveries rather than rubbish ones.

 

[Richard]

The word "inconsistent" usually means more than that a player simply varies between low scores and big ones. If Martyn varied between lean series and big ones, you might have a case, but scoring 5 and 3 in one test and a big hundred in the next is not enough to indicate any sort of consistency, merely that you got out cheaply in one game and not the next. Maybe you got a couple of good deliveries in the first game? The fact that he has averaged over 40 in every series in the past four years is indicative of his consistency - in fact there are few if any players in the world who can claim the same.

Ponting averaged something like 80 between Headingley 2001 and SCG 2003\04 - he can't have had too many lean series in there.
Look, as I say, Martyn is not Marvan Atapattu-inconsistent, but he does tend to either get out very cheaply or have spells where he rarely gets past 40.

 

[Richard]

And how many bowlers over history have moved it more than that then?

2 inches is more than enough to defeat the batsman and take the edge.

Only if it's very fast and very full.
If it's 80mph and good-length it needs to move a bit more than that normally.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Ponting averaged something like 80 between Headingley 2001 and SCG 2003\04 - he can't have had too many lean series in there.

He did actually, he just had some massive ones as well.

Ponting series averages since 2003 Ashes
vs England 52.13
vs West Indies 130.75
vs Bangladesh 34.50
vs Zimbabwe 129.50
vs India 100.86
vs Sri Lanka 33.00
vs Sri Lanka 33.50
vs India 11.50
vs New Zealand 72.50
vs Pakistan 100.75
Total average over period: 72.05

Martyn series averages since 2003 Ashes
vs England 40.00
vs Zimbabwe 42.50
vs India 42.33
vs Sri Lanka 55.50
vs Sri Lanka 50.75
vs India 55.50
vs New Zealand 41.50
vs Pakistan 103.33
Total average over period: 52.10

 

[Mister Wright]

He did actually, he just had some massive ones as well.

Ponting series averages since 2003 Ashes
vs England 52.13
vs West Indies 130.75
vs Bangladesh 34.50
vs Zimbabwe 129.50
vs India 100.86
vs Sri Lanka 33.00
vs Sri Lanka 33.50
vs India 11.50
vs New Zealand 72.50
vs Pakistan 100.75
Total average over period: 72.05

Martyn series averages since 2003 Ashes
vs England 40.00
vs Zimbabwe 42.50
vs India 42.33
vs Sri Lanka 55.50
vs Sri Lanka 50.75
vs India 55.50
vs New Zealand 41.50
vs Pakistan 103.33
Total average over period: 52.10

I think Ponting's average is a little better against India if you factor in the home series where he scored 2 double centuries.

 

[SJS]

He did actually, he just had some massive ones as well.

Ponting series averages since 2003 Ashes
vs England 52.13
vs West Indies 130.75
vs Bangladesh 34.50
vs Zimbabwe 129.50
vs India 100.86
vs Sri Lanka 33.00
vs Sri Lanka 33.50
vs India 11.50
vs New Zealand 72.50
vs Pakistan 100.75
Total average over period: 72.05

Thats very intersting indeed.

He is really bothered by spin isnt he !

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Thats very intersting indeed.

He is really bothered by spin isnt he !

Well, it is worth rememebering that the Bangladesh and second Sri Lankan series only contain two tests, and the Indian series only contains one, but yes he does struggle against the turning ball sometimes. Particularly quality turn from both ends - he handled Murali and Kaneria fine for the most part each time he has faced them, and the same is true of Kumble, except when he has had Harbhajan at the other end.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I think Ponting's average is a little better against India if you factor in the home series where he scored 2 double centuries.

That's series by series average, not overall versus particular opposition. There's two Indian series there, one where he averages over 100 and the other where he averages 11.

 

[Mister Wright]

That's series by series average, not overall versus particular opposition. There's two Indian series there, one where he averages over 100 and the other where he averages 11.

I just assumed since you said in your post "since Ashes 2003" and "vs India" you would include the home series. Or are you just selecting the series you want to help your cause?

 

[Dasa]

I just assumed since you said in your post "since Ashes 2003" and "vs India" you would include the home series. Or are you just selecting the series you want to help your cause?

He did actually, he just had some massive ones as well.

Ponting series averages since 2003 Ashes
vs England 52.13
vs West Indies 130.75
vs Bangladesh 34.50
vs Zimbabwe 129.50
vs India 100.86
vs Sri Lanka 33.00
vs Sri Lanka 33.50
vs India 11.50
vs New Zealand 72.50
vs Pakistan 100.75
Total average over period: 72.05

There's the home series against India for you. No selective quoting of stats here as far as I can see.