matthew hayden or brian lara?

[Mister Wright]

Why?
If more people had had the chance in the past, many would undoubtedly have done it.

Yes, but the fact is nobody else has done it. Hayden does not only score runs at International level, he was a prolific scorer at domestic level, quite often on the seam friendly Gabba wicket of the 90s, so this assumption you have of him being poor on seaming wickets is quite unfathamable.

 

[Richard]

Really? How come he's always been troubled by the ball moving back into him, every single time I've seen him?
Even recently Kyle Mills has shown quite clearly that the weakness is very much still there.

 

[social]

Really? How come he's always been troubled by the ball moving back into him, every single time I've seen him?
Even recently Kyle Mills has shown quite clearly that the weakness is very much still there.

Many left-handers, when out of form, are susceptible to the ball moving into them - witness Langer in the early stages of the Indian tour and Smith in Sa. It is all to do with balance and particularly head position.

Hayden, for the previous 4 years, had routinely dispatched those very same deliveries for 4.

 

[tooextracool]

He's better than most - but equally there are plenty of batsmen of yesteryear who'd probably have done what he's done if they'd played enough, on enough flat pitches.

perhaps so, but if youd want someone to score 400 against zimbabwe on a flat track, youd pick hayden ahead of every other player in the world ATM, because he really has made a career out of it.

 

[tooextracool]

Indeed, only once did Anderson bowl particularly well in a real Test-match, this one (which we all know was one of the worst pitches of recent years - if not the worst) and he bowled OK in the second-innings here (on a much flatter pitch), though he was boosted by 2 of the last 3 wickets.
Nonetheless, the amount of swing he can generate and the fact that, on odd occasions, he can totally polarise his awfully wayward tendencies and bowl with incredible accuracy mean he still has potential in my eyes.

amazing isnt it? thats pretty much your argument against why simon jones DOESNT have potential. and thats despite that fact that simon jones has shown incredible accuracy throughout the series in SA. no anderson for me is and always has been rubbish, yes there was a while when everyone thought that he was the real deal, but when you look back at it, youd find out the number of wickets he got from clearly rubbish balls, that even the worst players shouldnt have got out to.

 

[tooextracool]

TBH I'll be a bit surprised if Martyn's still playing in 2008 - he can just about get away with his inconsistency at 32 - at 36? I don't think so, not in Australia, and not as a WAn. If he was from NSW, just maybe, but not a chance from anywhere else... the next NSW sensation will be in before you know it...

yes the amazing inconsistency of damien martyn whos averaged over 40 in every series since(and including the last ashes series).

 

[tooextracool]

Many left-handers, when out of form, are susceptible to the ball moving into them - witness Langer in the early stages of the Indian tour and Smith in Sa. It is all to do with balance and particularly head position.

Hayden, for the previous 4 years, had routinely dispatched those very same deliveries for 4.

hayden was so clearly not out of form on the last ashes tour to england. and its not just the ball that comes into him, its the ball that goes away too, as someone like alex tudor adequately demonstrated last time around.

 

[C_C]

Bottomline is that Hayden is NOT in the same class as Lara or Tendulkar or even Dravid and Ponting.

 

[social]

hayden was so clearly not out of form on the last ashes tour to england. and its not just the ball that comes into him, its the ball that goes away too, as someone like alex tudor adequately demonstrated last time around.

You're right.

Cant play the one that goes either way.

Has scored over 5000 test runs at over 50 because nobody moves a new ball even one millimetre these days

 

[tooextracool]

because moving it by a millimetre is what counts.
fact is that whenever bowlers have had the chance to move it, hes struggled, and that hasnt come as much of a surprise.

 

[marc71178]

Or someone coming in at three?

If the conditions are as bad as you like to make out then number 3 will be in very early.

 

[marc71178]

Of course England would be better picking the guys performing now - if there were any. Even Hoggard hasn't exactly been the most consistent in The World, and of Jones I'm still totally to be convinced. Ain't like any other specialist-bowlers set The World alight in South Africa.

When Flintoff is part of the attack that's a slightly misleading comment,

 

[marc71178]

yes the amazing inconsistency of damien martyn whos averaged over 40 in every series since(and including the last ashes series).

Shocking consistency that.

 

[marc71178]

because moving it by a millimetre is what counts.

No, because apparently not even moving it 2 inches is much any more...

 

[Richard]

perhaps so, but if youd want someone to score 400 against zimbabwe on a flat track, youd pick hayden ahead of every other player in the world ATM, because he really has made a career out of it.

ATM, yes, but I can't conceive that there haven't been hundreds of other players in the last 40 or 50 years who'd have been equally capable had they had the chance - as you say, it's not incredibly difficult by the standards of top players.

 

[Richard]

amazing isnt it? thats pretty much your argument against why simon jones DOESNT have potential. and thats despite that fact that simon jones has shown incredible accuracy throughout the series in SA. no anderson for me is and always has been rubbish, yes there was a while when everyone thought that he was the real deal, but when you look back at it, youd find out the number of wickets he got from clearly rubbish balls, that even the worst players shouldnt have got out to.

I've said Jones doesn't have potential, where?
Jones most certainly did NOT show incredible accuracy throughout the SA series, he just sometimes bowled exceedingly accurately, sometimes very, very poorly.
I maintain that for both Jones or Anderson to improve their accuracy will be a very difficult task, and until both do I don't feel either are Test-class bowlers. Jones has got his share of wickets with rubbish deliveries, too.

 

[Richard]

yes the amazing inconsistency of damien martyn whos averaged over 40 in every series since(and including the last ashes series).

Damien Martyn
Notice how often he veers between single-figure scores and half-centuries\centuries?

 

[Richard]

When Flintoff is part of the attack that's a slightly misleading comment,

Notice that the most successful bowler wasn't a specialist.
And he made the specialists look rather better than they actually were.

 

[Richard]

If the conditions are as bad as you like to make out then number 3 will be in very early.

As BAD? What are you on about?
Australia have by-and-large played in conditions about as good for batting - especially against seamers - as you could wish for, something I've repeatedly stated.

 

[Richard]

No, because apparently not even moving it 2 inches is much any more...

2 inches - not even the width of a bat.
Given the adjustment that will take place, 2 inches won't cause good batsmen any trouble.