Fringe Aussie fringe Players who would excel in other teams..

[Zinzan]

i would give him credit, but i would continue to say that hes an FTB because he wouldnt have managed to prove to everyone that he is capable of scoring on seamer friendly wickets.

What if they were (though unlikely) all Seamer friendly pitches and Hayden scores the most runs on either team. Would you still maintain he was a FTB??

 

[Zinzan]

Simple, If you are winning games comfortably, there isn't so much pressure. Kaspa was in a pressure situation in that game bowling the 48th over when NZ needed 32 off the last 3 with 4 wks in hand.

Are you denying he crumbled in that over ?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Of course it does. What other world class bowler can you name that had only 1 five wicket bag in 45 test matches??

So i suppose you'd like us ignore this stat (5 wkts in innings) as well as his crap bowling average.

Why don't we just chuck all the stats away....

Consider this...

I'll pinpoint the 3rd Test against South Africa as Flintoff's "arrival" with the ball. He took 6/154 in that game, including 4/54. Since (and including) that match, Freddie has taken 76 wickets in 22 matches at 26.89 with 1 5fer.
Flintoff has taken 4fers in 2 of his last 3 Tests. In 1 match Giles took 3 wickets and Hoggard 2 and in the other Simon Jones took 4. When other bowlers take wickets, it's impossible to take those same wickets. The game doesn't work that way.

In the second innings of that Jones match, Flintoff took 3 of the 6 SA wickets before a declaration. Flintoff has taken a lot of 3-wicket hauls lately and in 3 of his last 4 innings hauls of 3 wickets, another bowler has taken at least 4 wickets. In the other of those 4, two bowlers have shared 5 wickets. Simply put, there's not much opportunity for him to take 5 sometimes.

Consider also that Jason Gillespie has taken 1 five-wicket haul in his last 23 Test matches. Surely he's a world class strike bowler? Flintoff isn't even considered a strike bowler, so surely you can ease up on him.

The fact that Flintoff remains potent enough to take 1 more wicket than Jason Gillespie in 60.1 less overs in his last 15 Test matches surely says something.

Instead of dwelling on his crap career average, look at how crap it was through his first 23 matches - 45.54. Now it's down to 34.80. That's an exceptional improvement.

 

[Zinzan]

Consider this...

I'll pinpoint the 3rd Test against South Africa as Flintoff's "arrival" with the ball. He took 6/154 in that game, including 4/54. Since (and including) that match, Freddie has taken 76 wickets in 22 matches at 26.89 with 1 5fer.
Flintoff has taken 4fers in 2 of his last 3 Tests. In 1 match Giles took 3 wickets and Hoggard 2 and in the other Simon Jones took 4. When other bowlers take wickets, it's impossible to take those same wickets. The game doesn't work that way.

In the second innings of that Jones match, Flintoff took 3 of the 6 SA wickets before a declaration. Flintoff has taken a lot of 3-wicket hauls lately and in 3 of his last 4 innings hauls of 3 wickets, another bowler has taken at least 4 wickets. In the other of those 4, two bowlers have shared 5 wickets. Simply put, there's not much opportunity for him to take 5 sometimes.

Consider also that Jason Gillespie has taken 1 five-wicket haul in his last 23 Test matches. Surely he's a world class strike bowler? Flintoff isn't even considered a strike bowler, so surely you can ease up on him.

The fact that Flintoff remains potent enough to take 1 more wicket than Jason Gillespie in 60.1 less overs in his last 15 Test matches surely says something.

Instead of dwelling on his crap career average, look at how crap it was through his first 23 matches - 45.54. Now it's down to 34.80. That's an exceptional improvement.

I've never ever suggested Flintoff is not a good test player and your right that he has definately improved. What I have always maintained is that IMO he is overated at test level. I certainly don't think he is one of the best test bowlers in the world. For me the proof will be in the pudding come the ashes series for then he will be tested against the best. As i said earlier this is an open Forum and if i feel people are "overtalking" Flintoff I will challenge this.

Unlike TEC's "stick in the mud" opinion on Hayden, At least I'm prepared to concede that I'm wrong if he does have a fantastic Ashes.

 

[tooextracool]

Well you did say it was a disgrace, clearly in the above quote.

Perhaps you should read your own posts more carefully

yes i said that he was a 'disgrace' in those games, not throughout the series. .
perhaps you should read my posts more carefully.

 

[tooextracool]

What if they were (though unlikely) all Seamer friendly pitches and Hayden scores the most runs on either team. Would you still maintain he was a FTB??

err obviously not. if he does that he would finally managed to have proven to everyone that he has improved his technique and is capable of scoring on seamer friendly wickets.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I've never ever suggested Flintoff is not a good test player and your right that he has definately improved. What I have always maintained is that IMO he is overated at test level. I certainly don't think he is one of the best test bowlers in the world. For me the proof will be in the pudding come the ashes series for then he will be tested against the best. As i said earlier this is an open Forum and if i feel people are "overtalking" Flintoff I will challenge this.

Unlike TEC's "stick in the mud" opinion on Hayden, At least I'm prepared to concede that I'm wrong if he does have a fantastic Ashes.

Surely Flintoff is among the top 10 Test bowlers though. Who would better him right now? McGrath, Gillespie, Warne, Pollock, Murali, Kumble, Ntini, Shoaib...

 

[tooextracool]

Simple, If you are winning games comfortably, there isn't so much pressure. Kaspa was in a pressure situation in that game bowling the 48th over when NZ needed 32 off the last 3 with 4 wks in hand.

Are you denying he crumbled in that over ?

where have i done that? equally hes also bowled well against some really good sides. such as his performances in the 2 games of the tvs cup against india and NZ, and in SL. again has lee

 

[tooextracool]

Unlike TEC's "stick in the mud" opinion on Hayden, At least I'm prepared to concede that I'm wrong if he does have a fantastic Ashes.

err no, flintoff bowling well in the ashes will have nothing to do with the pitches, because you are not convinced that hes capable of bowling well against quality opposition(even though SA arent exactly poor anyways).
on the other hand im not convinced of haydens ability on seamer friendly wickets, hence his just succeeding on flat wickets against england simply confirms what i've already known about him.

 

[Zinzan]

err no, flintoff bowling well in the ashes will have nothing to do with the pitches, because you are not convinced that hes capable of bowling well against quality opposition(even though SA arent exactly poor anyways).
on the other hand im not convinced of haydens ability on seamer friendly wickets, hence his just succeeding on flat wickets against england simply confirms what i've already known about him.

Err right....as someone correctly stated earlier , If he (hayden) succeeds, the wickets he played on won't be "seaming wickets", and if he fails, he will just be a poor batsman. If he succeeds in some matches but not in others, the innings where he failed will be on seaming wickets, and the innings where he succeeded will be flat batting tracks.

By the way....do you have conclusive statistics to back up your comments that Hayden can't bat on seamer friendly conditions...apart from bringing up his 380 against Zim?? Or is it just an assumption you've made??
Are you suggesting none of Hayden 19 or so test hundreds are ever on seaming wickets??

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

By the way....do you have conclusive statistics to back up your comments that Hayden can't bat on seamer friendly conditions...apart from bringing up his 380 against Zim?? Or is it just an assumption you've made??
Are you suggesting none of Hayden 19 or so test hundreds are ever on seaming wickets??

I believe his stock response to this is "give me an example of a seaming wicket where Hayden has performed", and then when an example is given that wicket isn't a seaming wicket.

Given that the guy averages 54 in FC cricket having played many of his matches on the Gabba wicket, which is renowned for being a seamer-friendly green top as much as any other wicket in the world, I can't see how anyone could think he was an FTB.

 

[chaminda_00]

Surely Flintoff is among the top 10 Test bowlers though. Who would better him right now? McGrath, Gillespie, Warne, Pollock, Murali, Kumble, Ntini, Shoaib...

I don't think he is in the top ten at all IMO. Guys like McGrath, Gillespie, Warne, Murali, Kaspa, Pollock, Shoaib, Hamy, Vaas and Kumble are all better. I would even say that day to day Hoggard is a better test bowler. Flintoff on current form is a good bowler but not in the top ten

 

[marc71178]

You do seem to have taken a disliking to Andrew Flintoff who is one player who I believe has lived up to his hype over the last couple of years and is the only genuine contender to Cairns title as "world's best allrounder".

Since when has Cairns had that title?

 

[marc71178]

I don't think he is in the top ten at all IMO. Guys like McGrath, Gillespie, Warne, Murali, Kaspa, Pollock, Shoaib, Hamy, Pathan and Kumble are all better. I would even say that day to day Hoggard is a better test bowler. Flintoff on current form is a good bowler but not in the top ten

Are you having a laugh?

 

[Zinzan]

Since when has Cairns had that title?

He had it up to the day he retired from test cricket

 

[chaminda_00]

Are you having a laugh?

sorry i meant Vaas

 

[chaminda_00]

He had it up to the day he retired from test cricket

Prior to Smith getting the captaincy of South Africa i think u would find Kallis had that status

 

[tassietiger]

Are you having a laugh?

Well, I can't say anything about Flintoff, as all I have seen of him is the odd ball here and there, but I think that Pathan is definitely a very good bowler, and is destined to be a star.

 

[Vikas Bhatt]

Lets see:

Stuart Law
Micheal Bevan
Andy Bichel
Andrew Symonds
Tom Moody
Stuart MacGill
Brett Lee
Micheal Kasprowicz
Brad Hodge
Shane Lee

Well put in a wicket keeper and you nearly got a separate One day XI here!

 

[Mr Casson]

I believe his stock response to this is "give me an example of a seaming wicket where Hayden has performed", and then when an example is given that wicket isn't a seaming wicket.

Given that the guy averages 54 in FC cricket having played many of his matches on the Gabba wicket, which is renowned for being a seamer-friendly green top as much as any other wicket in the world, I can't see how anyone could think he was an FTB.

Well I might be wrong, but I think a lot of Queenslanders have been saying recently that the 'Gabba isn't nearly as green as it used to be. And I know from players' comments that the 'Gabba is actually a wonderful pitch to bat on if you can survive the first session.