Fringe Aussie fringe Players who would excel in other teams..

[tooextracool]

I don't think everyone smashed him around the park it was just Afridi, Inzi and Razzaq in those three games. Most of that hitting was at the end of the match during happy hour when everyone gets smacked.

so go ahead then explain how at perth, lee was hammered by butt(13 from 10) and by hameed (11 of 12) early on in the spell?
or how he was hammered at the start at sydney and then came back to improve his figures by bowlin to hasan and anjum?
or how butt hammered him at the start of the inning in the 2nd ODI?

 

[tooextracool]

You must be joking. How on earth is going for 6-7 an over for one game and taking a couple of wickets in the process comparable to conceeding 23 off an over at the death and losing a game?.

you mean like how lee went for 1/63 from 9.2 overs and pretty much lost the game against pak in the last ODI before the final?

I agree that Kasper has been fanatastic since he was brought back into the side, and as impressed as I am with Lee's recent performances I don't think he should be dropped to allow Lee in at all. But, to belittle the brilliant recent performances of a bowler just to back up your theory that he is a completely useless bowler and that Kasper is superior in every way is rather pathetic.

i havent belittled lees performances at all, ive pointed out that kaspa has done a much better job. and i most certainly dont think lee is completely useless in ODIs. i do however think he is in tests.

 

[marc71178]

If Lee's bowlings been outstanding, but not great IYO....How would you rate Flintoff's bowling?? Surely no better than outstanding?

You really need to rid yourself of that chip on your shoulder.

 

[marc71178]

I do however think Flintoff is overated with the ball in test cricket....

Even if you ignore his crap test bowling record - which all flintoff fans like to do - How someone who has taken 5 wkts in an innings in 45 tests just ONCE could be rated as one of the best bowlers in the world (Tests) is beyond me.

Of course you can ignore it, seeing as his career has a clear split from when he became injury free and worked wth Cooley.

Why is 5 wickets such a big thing? Surely as 1 of 5 bowlers a 5fer isn't easy to obtain, and if you look at his bowling figures of the past 18 months or so, I doubt an average of 25 is going to come up too badly.

 

[marc71178]

Your dislike for Lee defies logic

Because post-injury Lee's Test record has really made him a first choice pick hasn't it.

 

[Zinzan]

yes it was 1 GAME! after that he bowled quite well in almost every game. and if we are going to look at one game, how about looking at those 3 games where brett lee was a complete disgrace and got hammered all over the park by everyone? even while mcgrath was bowling well at the other end and creating the pressure.



as someone else has already pointed out, kaspa since his return has been nothing short of brilliant in both forms of the game. to even question dropping him is something that requires stupidity.

Granted, I've possibly been a bit tough on Kaspa given that was one game.
However since when is going for over 60 in ten overs in a game designed for batsmen a disgrace?? Hammered all over the park?? For a fast attacking bowler like Lee to only twice concede over 60 in 10 games on good batting conditions is not bad at all. Its not like he didn't create havoc in the other games.

Also Remember NZ are clearly the 2nd best oneday side at the moment, so thats the toughest challenge for the Aussie, and that was the game Kaspa got hammered, the game where the pressure was really on. For the record Lee bowled brilliantly in that first game vs NZ.

 

[Zinzan]

You really need to rid yourself of that chip on your shoulder.

My question was a perfectly legitamate one.

Chip on my shoulder?? Or do you mean the fact I believe Flintoff is overrated. This is an open forum isn't it?? If i disagree with other posts, particular when a average player is being compared with alltime great players, of course I'm going to express my opinion.

If thats considered a chip on my shoulder, then maybe i do.

If so, is my chip any different to TEC's chip with Brett Lee and Hayden??

Or perhaps we both just think those respectative players are over overated.

Sorry I have a different opinion than you Marc.

 

[Fiery]

My question was a perfectly legitamate one.

Chip on my shoulder?? Or do you mean the fact I believe Flintoff is overrated. This is an open forum isn't it?? If i disagree with other posts, particular when a average player is being compared with alltime great players, of course I'm going to express my opinion.

If thats considered a chip on my shoulder, then maybe i do.

If so, is my chip any different to TEC's chip with Brett Lee and Hayden??

Or perhaps we both just think those respectative players are over overated.

Sorry I have a different opinion than you Marc.

You do seem to have taken a disliking to Andrew Flintoff who is one player who I believe has lived up to his hype over the last couple of years and is the only genuine contender to Cairns title as "world's best allrounder".
I can understand that because he's English it's hard to admit that he's pretty good but I've finally resigned myself to the fact.

 

[social]

trust me, if he fails for the entire series against england, he'll be dropped from the side.

I agree.

But if he scores 600 runs for the series on anything flatter than a minefield, you wont give him any credit either.

 

[Zinzan]

Of course you can ignore it, seeing as his career has a clear split from when he became injury free and worked wth Cooley.

Why is 5 wickets such a big thing? Surely as 1 of 5 bowlers a 5fer isn't easy to obtain, and if you look at his bowling figures of the past 18 months or so, I doubt an average of 25 is going to come up too badly.

Your right that 5wkts in an innings isn't the be all and end all for a bowler. And yes 4-20 normally indicates a better performance than say 5-100. However just ONE 5wkt bag in 45 test is a suprisingly low for someone talked up as one of the 5 or so best test bowlers in the world at the moment.

Question for you. Can you name me any other good test bowler, past or present that had taken only one 5 wkt bag in 45 tests or more??

 

[Fiery]

Your right that 5wkts in an innings isn't the be all and end all for a bowler. And yes 4-20 normally indicates a better performance than say 5-100. However just ONE 5wkt bag in 45 test is a suprisingly low for someone talked up as one of the 5 or so best test bowlers in the world at the moment.

Question for you. Can you name me any other good test bowler, past or present that had taken only one 5 wkt bag in 45 tests or more??

Dayle Hadlee was a fine bowler who never took a 5 wicket bag

 

[Zinzan]

You do seem to have taken a disliking to Andrew Flintoff who is one player who I believe has lived up to his hype over the last couple of years and is the only genuine contender to Cairns title as "world's best allrounder".
I can understand that because he's English it's hard to admit that he's pretty good but I've finally resigned myself to the fact.

We'll we disgree. I've got know problem acknowledging Flintoff is one of the worlds top oneday players, but it is my view that he hasn't proved himself enough yet at test level against the best opposition to be considered as one of the best test players in the world.

He may prove me wrong in the up and coming Ashes. If he has a great allround ashes, I'll be the first to say I was wrong and that he is top-class at test level, because obviously he will be playing against the best opposition.

Its that simple really.

 

[Zinzan]

Dayle Hadlee was a fine bowler who never took a 5 wicket bag

Correct not a bad bowler at all. One of the top 5 or so bowlers in the world in his time though??

I don't think so, not even close

 

[Fiery]

Correct not a bad bowler at all. One of the top 5 or so bowlers in the world in his time though??

I don't think so, not even close

I wouldn't try to argue that Flintoff was in the 5 top bowlers in the world but to say that he hasn't proven himself as a test player is wrong in my view. Since the start of 2003 he has scored 1600 runs at 44.00 and taken 77 wickets at under 30. Those are outstanding figures for an allrounder in test cricket. Just because he hasn't taken many 5 wicket hauls doesn't really mean much.
I like bagging an Englishman as much as the next kiwi bloke but I think you might be being a bit harsh on him. Better to pick on easier targets like some of the other muppets they pick to play for them like Wharf, McGrath and Solanki.

 

[social]

Your right that 5wkts in an innings isn't the be all and end all for a bowler. And yes 4-20 normally indicates a better performance than say 5-100. However just ONE 5wkt bag in 45 test is a suprisingly low for someone talked up as one of the 5 or so best test bowlers in the world at the moment.

Question for you. Can you name me any other good test bowler, past or present that had taken only one 5 wkt bag in 45 tests or more??

Mike Hendrick was a very fine bowler who averaged over 4 wickets per test at a mid-twenties average and never took five wickets in a test innings. He didnt make it to 45 tests because he defected to WSC.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

IMO Lee is more potent then Flintoff, if u want a wicket, who would u bowl?? Lee would be the guy i would pick over Flintoff.

Form points conclusively to Flintoff though. He's the guy I'd turn to in Tests and ODIs.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If Lee's bowlings been outstanding, but not great IYO....How would you rate Flintoff's bowling?? Surely no better than outstanding?

I would call Freddie outstanding. He's been great at times, but outstanding overall. Lee has to show me he can pull it off in Tests consistently before I even consider using the word great.

 

[tooextracool]

Granted, I've possibly been a bit tough on Kaspa given that was one game.
However since when is going for over 60 in ten overs in a game designed for batsmen a disgrace?? Hammered all over the park?? For a fast attacking bowler like Lee to only twice concede over 60 in 10 games on good batting conditions is not bad at all. Its not like he didn't create havoc in the other games. .

no i havent said it was a disgrace, you were the one who brought up one of the rare kaspas poor performance to suggest that lee should be in the side ahead of him, and i pointed out that he shouldnt. and it would have been 3 games that he went for over 6 an over had ponting not brought him back on to bowl to naved ul hasan in the 5th ODI to improve his figures. nonetheless he still had poor figures in that game. no im not saying hes useless, im simply saying that someone like kaspa has been more consistent.

Also Remember NZ are clearly the 2nd best oneday side at the moment, so thats the toughest challenge for the Aussie, and that was the game Kaspa got hammered, the game where the pressure was really on. For the record Lee bowled brilliantly in that first game vs NZ.

your point is? i think as a bowler id much rather be hammered by a good side than be hammered by a poor one.

 

[tooextracool]

I agree.

But if he scores 600 runs for the series on anything flatter than a minefield, you wont give him any credit either.

i would give him credit, but i would continue to say that hes an FTB because he wouldnt have managed to prove to everyone that he is capable of scoring on seamer friendly wickets.

 

[Zinzan]

how about looking at those 3 games where brett lee was a complete disgrace and got hammered all over the park by everyone?
.

Well you did say it was a disgrace, clearly in the above quote.

Perhaps you should read your own posts more carefully