England players and selection discussion thread

[reyrey]

Jofra’s never been the same since bowling 42 overs that innings in New Zealand, but yeah, I agree with that, I think a lot of them are naturally at the faster end of fast-medium just trying to eke out a few extra mph to be that point of difference, perhaps Wood too wouldn’t have got injured if he weren’t always trying to break speed records

x3 They are trying to extract that extra yard of pace every delivery.

Take Broad as a counter example. He rarely bowled at full tilt, typically stuck to mid 80's, but he could have bowled faster if he wanted even in his mid 30's. There was a series in Sri Lanka a few years ago where he was only gonna play one game and wasn't gonna really be needed to bowl much and he was sending them down with really good heat. He definitely wouldn't have bowled like that if he was gonna have a bigger work load.

 

[grecian]

x3 They are trying to extract that extra yard of pace every delivery.

Take Broad as a counter example. He rarely bowled at full tilt, typically stuck to mid 80's, but he could have bowled faster if he wanted even in his mid 30's. There was a series in Sri Lanka a few years ago where he was only gonna play one game and wasn't gonna really be needed to bowl much and he was sending them down with really good heat. He definitely wouldn't have bowled like that if he was gonna have a bigger work load.

Broad and Anderson are good examples of nearly current England players.

Yet the thing to do is look at the past, many of the greatest bowlers of all-time went from express pace to more controlled bowling, Hadlee, Trueman, Marshall, Lillee. Whilst many who carried on bowling fast were limited to a brief spell in the limelight, Bond, Tyson, Bishop, Thomson.

 

[Bahseph]

Is the injuries to fast bowlers an England thing? Definitely not. It seems more pronounced for some reason but that just might be because they play more often than other teams. Look at South Africa, Nortje(major) and Ngidi(multiple minor) have both had injury issues. Jansen just got rested because they are concerned about him and Coetzee was also recently ruled out of the West Indies series. Rabada is a bit of a freak athlete but he doesn't try to bowl 150 every spell does he? It's definitely a contributing factor.

 

[wpdavid]

Moeen has announced his retirement from international cricket. No great surprise, and I don't know if he'd ever have been picked again anyway. But all the best to a genuinely nice guy who gave us some good moments over the years.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Yeah, ended up with more test wickets at a better average than Emburey, Tufnell and Giles.

Not bad for a chap who's essentially a career batsman.

 

[wpdavid]

Yeah, ended up with more test wickets at a better average than Emburey, Tufnell and Giles.

Not bad for a chap who's essentially a career batsman.

I didn't know that. In which case, there can't be many England spinners who have taken more test wickets than Moeen. Underwood and Swann obviously. Presumably Laker. Maybe Illingworth and Lock.

EDIT
Nope, just Underwood and Swann.
tbf Laker and Lock played significantly fewer tests than Moeen and eneded up with significantly lower averages.
I'd argue that Moeen compares favourably with the 1960s generation (Illingworth, Titmus and Allen), whose slightly lower average than Moeen reflects the tendency of batsmen in those days to block the crap out of the ball. And their strike rate was way worse than Moeen's.

England Test matches bowling most wickets career | ESPNcricinfo

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[AndrewB]

I didn't know that. In which case, there can't be many England spinners who have taken more test wickets than Moeen. Underwood and Swann obviously. Presumably Laker. Maybe Illingworth and Lock.

EDIT
Nope, just Underwood and Swann.
tbf Laker and Lock played significantly fewer tests than Moeen and eneded up with significantly lower averages.
I'd argue that Moeen compares favourably with the 1960s generation (Illingworth, Titmus and Allen), whose slightly lower average than Moeen reflects the tendency of batsmen in those days to block the crap out of the ball. And their strike rate was way worse than Moeen's.

England Test matches bowling most wickets career | ESPNcricinfo

Find England cricket Test matches bowling most wickets career at ESPNcricinfo. Records and stats of England Test matches bowling most wickets career.

www.espncricinfo.com

I wouldn't say that 31 is a slightly lower average than 37 (unless you'd also say that Moeen was only a slightly better batter than they were).
FWIW, the overall batting averages in matches where Moeen/Illingworth played are virtually the same, but those of England's opponents were lower against Illingworth (28 v 31).

There's an odd contrast between Illingworth and Emburey's Test bowling careers... Illingworth's average after 17 Tests was 47, but after that he averaged 27; Emburey's average halfway through his career was 30, but in the second half it was 51.

 

[the big bambino]

I think Allen’s Titmus’ and illingworth’s bowling averages were distinctly lower than Moeen’s

 

[wpdavid]

I wouldn't say that 31 is a slightly lower average than 37 (unless you'd also say that Moeen was only a slightly better batter than they were).
FWIW, the overall batting averages in matches where Moeen/Illingworth played are virtually the same, but those of England's opponents were lower against Illingworth (28 v 31).

There's an odd contrast between Illingworth and Emburey's Test bowling careers... Illingworth's average after 17 Tests was 47, but after that he averaged 27; Emburey's average halfway through his career was 30, but in the second half it was 51.

Yeah fair enough about the single word 'slightly'. Ditto @the big bambino btw. It's important to get these things right.
fwiw I wasn't looking to build a serious argument about Moeen being a better bowler than the 60s guys; maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I'm just thinking out loud about some of the factors at play. Apart from the obvious factor of uncovered wickets in those days, the approach of the batsman was different, and the bowlers' strike rates are also relevant. People can make of it what they will.

Regarding your final points, maybe Illingworth's stats may simply reflect him getting better with age. I suppose the improvement must have concided with him being captain. My pet theory with Emburey is that he was never the same after his three-year absence from test cricket due to taking the rand. I don't know how neatly that fits with the first and second halves of his career.

 

[GIMH]

Moeen just strikes me as the ultimate team player. He’s always filled the role he was asked to.

Along with Buttler and Stokes, won the biggest prize in each format of the game.

 

[Pothas]

Moeen just strikes me as the ultimate team player. He’s always filled the role he was asked to.

Along with Buttler and Stokes, won the biggest prize in each format of the game.

Will always be one of my favourite ever England players. He massively exceeded any reasonable expectations with the ball. He should have done better with the bat but as you say he always played the role they needed him to, ending up at 3 last year the perfect example of that. I think he comfortably averages in the 30s if he has his whole career batting 6 or 7.

 

[wpdavid]

I was going to mention batting at 3 in last year's Ashes too. His idea wasn't it? And it allowed Brook to play a match winning innings back in his usual position.

 

[GIMH]

I was going to mention batting at 3 in last year's Ashes too. His idea wasn't it? And it allowed Brook to play a match winning innings back in his usual position.

I was driving home from London that day having been at Wembley for blur the night before, and had TMS on. The confusion as Moeen was walking out was surreal.

A couple of overs later Aggers said, ‘if you’ve just switched on and heard us mention Moeen batting - don’t worry, he’s at 3.’ And all I could think about was how much I would have melted down had I indeed just switched radio commentary on at that moment.

 

[LangleyburyCCPlayee]

I was going to mention batting at 3 in last year's Ashes too. His idea wasn't it? And it allowed Brook to play a match winning innings back in his usual position.

Will always be one of my favourite ever England players. He massively exceeded any reasonable expectations with the ball. He should have done better with the bat but as you say he always played the role they needed him to, ending up at 3 last year the perfect example of that. I think he comfortably averages in the 30s if he has his whole career batting 6 or 7.

Batted up the order for Worcs didn’t he? Gave a very decent fist of it last year!

 

[govinda indian fan]

Moeen was great servent of english cricket remember kohli and rahane were his bunnies

 

[wpdavid]

Moeen was great servent of english cricket remember kohli and rahane were his bunnies

That reminds me that his performances in 2014 and 2018 were notable exceptions to my comment on another thread that spinners bowling to Indian batsmen in English conditions was rarely a recipe for success.

 

[honestbharani]

Moeen just strikes me as the ultimate team player. He’s always filled the role he was asked to.

Along with Buttler and Stokes, won the biggest prize in each format of the game.

Yeah.. and also the 2 world cups.

 

[AndrewB]

Regarding your final points, maybe Illingworth's stats may simply reflect him getting better with age. I suppose the improvement must have concided with him being captain. My pet theory with Emburey is that he was never the same after his three-year absence from test cricket due to taking the rand. I don't know how neatly that fits with the first and second halves of his career.

That seems to be true for Illingworth (his batting also improved), though I don't know it also follows for his FC stats.

Emburey's bowling was OK in his first two post-ban series (19@28 in the 1985 Ashes, 14@32 in the 1985-6 series in WI), which takes him up to halfway: after that, his average was 35+ in ever series he played. (His batting, of course, did the opposite: his average was 14 at the end of the 1985-6 series, 30 afterwards).

 

[Third_Man]

I'm not saying he doesn't get injured. But he doesn't miss half a season/year at a time.

I.e Wood,Archer,Tongue,Stone and Atkinson

All of the above the players we've wanted in Australia in the past and future.

It wouldn't surprise if we have zero of them by the time they come around.

Jimmy didn't need to be retired he could have just been dropped/been in squad.

Think there is a strong argument to say that he has missed half a season every year since central contracts came in (and nearly always all of the business end).

He might not be injured for the games that he misses, but a couple of county games plus maybe say 4 tests played is not even half a season.

He misses half a season each year so as to manage his workload, lessen the effect of niggles and preserve his overall fitness.

Without checking the actual detail, I imagine the argument is 10x 'almost half seasons' is better than 5x 'fullish' ones (and 'early' retirement)?

 

[kevinw]

I still find it embarrassing for English cricket that Emburey went on two rebel tours and still played for England afterwards.