kyear2
International Coach
Not fighting anyone.
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Dale Steyn vs Muralitharan
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
What do you mean? He didn't bowl as bad in the other tests in 2008 as he did in 2012.
HouHsiaoHsien
International Debutant
Nah dude. Steyn in Australia is near ATG given you contextualise the era. 2008 he was the standout performer, and 2012 he had a great performance too. I’m not including his last match since he barely played in that one. WPM of 5+, a fantastic SR and great average for the era
HouHsiaoHsien
International Debutant
None of McGrath’s series performances in SA come close to Steyn in Aus 2008, because of how important the latter series was for SA, and because of the strength of the opposition faced, and cause Steyn was out and out the best performer.
kyear2
International Coach
I just can't agree, it was good, but can't say ATG. Not to. Mention he wasn't much better in SA either, and ok much more helpful wickets.
smash84
The Tiger King
Yes, not according to your definition of ATG.
Didn't you say Ambrose was ATG in some place because he took 14 wickets in 4 matches somewhere?
But of course. match winning 5fers and 10fers at a slightly higher average are not ATG....WTF?
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
I mean, remember the golden average of 25??Yes, not according to your definition of ATG.
Didn't you say Ambrose was ATG in some place because he took 14 wickets in 4 matches somewhere?
But of course. match winning 5fers and 10fers at a slightly higher average are not ATG....WTF?
smash84
The Tiger King
Seriously, as OS mentioned earlier in the thread, why are certain standards applied to certain players and not to others?
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
I will be completely honest here, we all do this to an extent; you, me, every sports fan. We judge players we like more favourably than the ones we despise and many a times overlook their weaknesses which we wouldn't for others. It's kinda human nature. It's just that Subs and Kyear sometimes pushes the boundaries with it.
smash84
The Tiger King
You're being very charitable here.
Coronis
International Coach
That’s not what world class is. Stop using words without knowing there meaning.
kyear2
International Coach
We're talking about averaging over 30 vs England and 27 vs Australia.
Where's the double standard?
You can say he out performed the Brits, doesn't make it ATG in my opinion.
And in no way am I putting down Steyn, I rate him the exact place you do, if not higher.
But some people look for things to pick at.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I consider Steyn in Australia as good/very good. I think that's fair. Just saying we should count the other performances too. ATG means exceptional.
Neither performance is ATG. However, in Australia it's still impressive. In England, it is good at best because he did win a couple of key games awhile getting smacked quite a bit more.
We can contextualise those games but the problem is that folks here don't contextualise that for other bowlers in other era.
However, they are right to say your definition of ATG is too myopic and average-focused. I would rather take Steyn in Aus over Ambrose in SA that you consider 'ATG'.
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subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Sure maybe 2008 but not 2012.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Are you even following the conversation? We are comparing pacers and spinners, that's the context. So Murali in the first innings is worldclass by spin standards, not pace standards.
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Coronis
International Coach
Yes. And a pacer averaging 26 in the first innings would be world class. You seem to completely misunderstand the term.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Not according to me over a career. That's too high. We wouldn't entertain someone averaging 26 in the top 15 pacers.
Coronis
International Coach
World class doesn’t mean ATG you ****ing moron. That was my whole point if you could read.
Tell me more about how Bumrah isn’t world class in the first innings. It’ll give us all confidence heading into B/G
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I agree, worldclass isn't ATG. Your problem is you are cribby and don't bother to give your definitions first to help for better understanding.
Worldclass refers to premium international standard. An ATG maintains worldclass standards long enough that he builds his reputation as one.
You have your own definitions, which is fine.
And Bumrah doesn't need to be worldclass in every metric to be worldclass overall. And if he maintain his worldclass performance long enough he will end up as a minimum ATVG or ATG.
So yes, for a pacer over a career, 26 is below worldclass standards.
OverratedSanity
Request Your Custom Title Now!
I'll lay it our for you clearly.
In 15 games vs Australia, Steyn picked up 70 wickets and averaged 27.
In 17 games vs South Africa, McGrath picked up 57 wickets and averaged 27.
Steyn vs Australia has been regularly brought up as an apparently weak or less than great spot on his record (not just by you). McGrath vs South Africa is almost never brought up as a weak spot on his record despite being worse statistically. Very clear double standard there. Aspects of some players' records are glossed over because people have already decided for other reasons that they're better.