Dale Steyn vs Muralitharan

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Actually Steyn, Mcgrath and Hadlee are very very close. Could go with anyone of these (maybe I’ll go with the first, given I prioritise the prior’s match-winning capabilities, given he was the major performer for SA in a series win in Australia(there most one ever), two tied series in India, a series win in England that took them to number one in the rankings, a series win in Sri Lanka, and player of series in a win in WI. Heck he even took a fifer in the game SA won in a series win in Pakistan. Plus he was a beast at home, and SR wise is amazing). Marshall very slightly ahead in the same group.

 

[shortpitched713]

Hadlee, Marshall, McGrath, Steyn, peak Imran, and peak Ambrose. There is little to choose between these bowlers, and they exemplify the absolute top quality of what seam bowling can accomplish.

There are reasons to pick any over the others, I like McGrath because of difficult bowling era conditions in which he played, and his consistency over a long span in them, but there are reasons to go for any of the others as well. Strong arguments against any are highly hair slitting nit picky exercises.

 

[shortpitched713]

Murali has a meaningful case for best bowler ever over every top seamer, especially given the post Murali/Warne international Test context (a less strong version of the post 2000s Test openers context).

Top level Test spinners seemingly can't perform anymore as an individual match winning wrecking ball consistently outside of tailor made conditions. The fact that Murali, and to a similar degree Warne did during their careers is a testament to them.

I'm not 100% sold on the idea yet (hence my vote to equalize the margin between Steyn and Murali), but there is something to it.

 

[subshakerz]

Hadlee was a lone warrior, whereas Mcgrath bowled in a stronger attack. That also needs to be considered. Whatever chances outside the three countries you mentioned, Hadlee capitalised on well: brilliant in India(equal to Mcgrath), Pak(early in his career, not a big problem) and a decent series in WI. But maybe Mcgrath played in a wider range of conditions and maybe I switch back to him.

The lone warrior and strong attack thing goes both ways. Hadlee gets to take more load but a greater share of wickets.

I think Hadlee needed better than a decent series in WI for me. That's a minor blemish.

 

[subshakerz]

Is averaging 26 and taking more than 3 wickets an innings not world class standard anymore?

Must have very few world class bowlers in the world.

Yeah it's a bit below world class in a comparison with top tier pacers.

 

[Migara]

Duh. Way to miss the point.

But guys like McGrath, Hadlee, Marshall and even Steyn maintain worldclass standards across innings, 1st to 4th.

Just saw, Hadlee averages 15 in the 4th innings. Awesome.

Spinners averaging more in the first innings non - shocker.

Spinners average 39.9 in the 1st innings over all tests. Pace bowlers 31.65.

 

[subshakerz]

Actually Steyn, Mcgrath and Hadlee are very very close. Could go with anyone of these (maybe I’ll go with the first, given I prioritise the prior’s match-winning capabilities, given he was the major performer for SA in a series win in Australia(there most one ever), two tied series in India, a series win in England that took them to number one in the rankings, a series win in Sri Lanka, and player of series in a win in WI. Heck he even took a fifer in the game SA won in a series win in Pakistan. Plus he was a beast at home, and SR wise is amazing). Marshall very slightly ahead in the same group.

Hadlee and McGrath can somewhat match Steyn for matchwinning performances but are more consistent between those games.

McGrath was the man in the 95 epic series win in WI. Multiple Ashes high stakes lead performances in Eng. Hadlee in India, Aus, Eng.

Steyn has the most varied records though across countries of matches won.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Hadlee and McGrath can somewhat match Steyn for matchwinning performances but are more consistent between those games.

McGrath was the man in the 95 epic series win in WI. Multiple Ashes high stakes lead performances in Eng. Hadlee in India, Aus, Eng.

Steyn has the most varied records though across countries of matches won.

I think Steyn’s a greater match winner, as his performances were more impressive than those of Mcgrath and Hadlee overall. Steyn was brilliant in series wins/ties against best sides of his era: Ind, Aus and Eng(2012 series). Plus even though the others are more consistent, Steyn compensates that by being more destructive and deadlier when on song.

 

[Johan]

Pacers are simply a superior breed of bowlers

 

[kyear2]

I have no idea who Brown, Smith and Martin are. Can say of cricket though, longevity is largely the reason Tendulkar, Hobbs and Sobers are such goliaths.

Re Marshall, the only gripe I have with him is pretty much that his career was highly concentrated between 1983-90. Before that he hardly, he hardly played. Though he played around equal matches to Hadlee and Imran, that's not necessarily a good measure of longevity, that means Cook has one of the best in the business. Now compare that 7 year stretch to 17 for Hadlee, McGrath and Murali; and I think it's an honest big weakness. I will still have Marshall ahead, but not by any noticeable difference between these 4 (and Barnes, but that's for another time).

Yes Hadlee played 17 years, how many more matches? Four or five?

How good was he during the first 5 years of that time?

Not trying to suggest that Marshall is a tier above anyone, but to say a big weakness when his impact was what it was, doesn't consolidate for me.

 

[subshakerz]

That's my point.

I think Steyn’s a greater match winner, as his performances were more impressive than those of Mcgrath and Hadlee overall. Steyn was brilliant in series wins/ties against best sides of his era: Ind, Aus and Eng(2012 series). Plus even though the others are more consistent, Steyn compensates that by being more destructive and deadlier when on song.

I think you aren't giving Hadlee and McGrath enough credit.

Hadlee personally led to first ever series wins in Eng and Aus and a series win at home against the best team of all time ,the WI. Great test win in India.

McGrath was bowler of the series in the most important series of the 90s against WI. If lead contributing in series wins are the measure, he is so far ahead of Steyn it isn't funny.

And no, Steyn isn't much more more destructive. He may take wickets quicker but McGrath and Hadlee could rip through an entire lineup when the time was right. Steyn took a single 7-fer, McGrath has two 8-fer and two 7-fers, Hadlee has a 9-fer and two 7-fers.

The problem is folks here are forgetting that Steyn was capable of bowling trash too often that cost his teams majorly.

 

[kyear2]

I now think Hadlee is slightly better than Mcgrath, given Hadlee’s performances in the only country he was bad in(Pak) can be justified through context, and he was not bad by any means in WI. Mcgrath was blunted somewhat in Pak and SL, and his record in India though great is a bit overrated. Also against the best opposition(SA), he was not at his best. A new order might be:
Marshall, Hadlee, Steyn/Mcgrath, Murali(the top tier)
Imran, Ambrose
Warne, Donald, Lillee, O’Reilly, Akram

McGrath played on much tougher wickets than Hadlee ever did, obviously especially in the 2nd half of his career. Hadlee basically played the overwhelming amount of tests the same places Lillee did.
McGrath was also able to utilize bounce and accuracy like no one I can think of.
He's ahead of Hadlee for me.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes Hadlee played 17 years, how many more matches? Four or five?

How good was he during the first 5 years of that time?

Not trying to suggest that Marshall is a tier above anyone, but to say a big weakness when his impact was what it was, doesn't consolidate for me.

Cook has played 145 matches. Guess he do have a better longevity than Sobers.

Not much great, kinda drives my point. Marshall was less exposed in his vulnerable years

Impactfully great, doesn't mean will all of sudden make me a fan of his longevity.

 

[kyear2]

The more and more time goes, I feel Murali is clearly better than Warne. Even in their India records, Murali was clearly better as he only played India once in his peak and had a good series(16 wickets in 3 matches) and dominated them at home. Also dominated ATG Australia at home. If he had one good series in Australia, I would surely consider him the GOAT bowler

My major issue with this is that his home pitches were tailor made doe him, Warne didn't have this outside of Sydney.

That doesn't even touch the higher percentage of minnows.

But yeah, can't personally rate him a tier above Warne, and for me they are basically tied.

 

[kyear2]

But problem with Hadlee is that a huge percent of his record is in Aus, Eng and NZ.

He played one series in WI (moderate), one in Pak (bad, early career) and two in India (overall good).

McGrath has much more spread out success and over 100 tests of consistent worldclass performance, including in the so-called batting era.

This

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

That's my point.
I think you aren't giving Hadlee and McGrath enough credit.

Hadlee personally led to first ever series wins in Eng and Aus and a series win at home against the best team of all time ,the WI. Great test win in India.

McGrath was bowler of the series in the most important series of the 90s against WI. If lead contributing in series wins are the measure, he is so far ahead of Steyn it isn't funny.

And no, Steyn isn't much more more destructive. He may take wickets quicker but McGrath and Hadlee could rip through an entire lineup when the time was right. Steyn took a single 7-fer, McGrath has two 8-fer and two 7-fers, Hadlee has a 9-fer and two 7-fers.

The problem is folks here are forgetting that Steyn was capable of bowling trash too often that cost his teams majorly.

Steyn was the main differentiating across a range of series. Less consistent yes, but the range of conditions(which even you acknowledged). Mcgrath played in an ATG team. Plus by destructive I meant the SR and WPM at peak. For a majority of his career, 82 of 93 matches, Steyn took 409 wickets @21 and an SR of 40. Mcgrath never had that.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

That's my point.
I think you aren't giving Hadlee and McGrath enough credit.

Hadlee personally led to first ever series wins in Eng and Aus and a series win at home against the best team of all time ,the WI. Great test win in India.

McGrath was bowler of the series in the most important series of the 90s against WI. If lead contributing in series wins are the measure, he is so far ahead of Steyn it isn't funny.

And no, Steyn isn't much more more destructive. He may take wickets quicker but McGrath and Hadlee could rip through an entire lineup when the time was right. Steyn took a single 7-fer, McGrath has two 8-fer and two 7-fers, Hadlee has a 9-fer and two 7-fers.

The problem is folks here are forgetting that Steyn was capable of bowling trash too often that cost his teams majorly.

For example the Aus teams and Ind teams NZ won against were far from their peak. Great achievement sure but, still I rate Steyn’s contributions as a match winner better.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Mcgrath more consistent, but then it was possible to blunt him somewhat in the SC and his record against the best opposition of his era is somewhat unimpressive. Everyone has small caveats in their record

 

[subshakerz]

McGrath played on much tougher wickets than Hadlee ever did, obviously especially in the 2nd half of his career. Hadlee basically played the overwhelming amount of tests the same places Lillee did.
McGrath was also able to utilize bounce and accuracy like no one I can think of.
He's ahead of Hadlee for me.

McGrath has two back to back quality series in India, WI, SA and NZ. Three in England. That's a very impressive sample of work.

 

[subshakerz]

For example the Aus teams and Ind teams NZ won against were far from their peak. Great achievement sure but, still I rate Steyn’s contributions as a match winner better.

Yeah but Steyn nearly lost many of those series with his bowling too.

2012 Aus, his bowling was trash the first two tests but luckily SA managed to hold on to draws.

2008 England, first test, flat performance that had to against be bailed out by the SA bats.

2011 India, after his Nagpur 10fer, was spanked around the park by Sehwag and co in the next test they lost.