Dale Steyn vs Muralitharan

[subshakerz]

Mcgrath more consistent, but then it was possible to blunt him somewhat in the SC and his record against the best opposition of his era is somewhat unimpressive. Everyone has small caveats in their record

McGrath was blunted somewhat in SC true. Against SA, failed mostly at home for some odd reason.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Yeah but Steyn nearly lost many of those series with his bowling too.

2012 Aus, his bowling was trash the first two tests but luckily SA managed to hold on to draws.

2008 England, first test, flat performance that had to against be bailed out by the SA bats.

2011 India, after his Nagpur 10fer, was spanked around the park by Sehwag and co in the next test they lost.

Agreed, but I’m looking at the overall picture. And that is a caveat in his record. But Hadlee and Mcgrath have equal caveats too

 

[capt_Luffy]

I love how @subshakerz is actually capable of making good arguments when he is not out on his hit piece on Ashwin, Kallis, Lara, Jadeja or Ambrose...

 

[capt_Luffy]

McGrath was blunted somewhat in SC true. Against SA, failed mostly at home for some odd reason.

Not some odd reason really, Australian pitches were quite flat and SA the next best team right then.

 

[subshakerz]

Not some odd reason really, Australian pitches were quite flat and SA the next best team right then.

Even in the 90s he didn't seem to get many against them. But he didn't seem to be bowling particularly bad either.

 

[subshakerz]

Agreed, but I’m looking at the overall picture. And that is a caveat in his record. But Hadlee and Mcgrath have equal caveats too

I am not sure if it's equal caveats though. While I agree matchwinning is important, if your day to day MO is going to cost your team matches and series just to get quicker wickets while leaking runs, I think that's a bit of a bigger problem.

How many wickets did McGraths teammates get because of the pressure he built, that aren't reflected on his record but in the match results? McGrath may have been occasionally blunted, but he rarely if ever bowled bad.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Fun fact: Steyn has more fifers in victories than any bowler, and has great records against the top order as well as the tail

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I am not sure if it's equal caveats though. While I agree matchwinning is important, if your day to day MO is going to cost your team matches and series just to get quicker wickets while leaking runs, I think that's a bit of a bigger problem.

How many wickets did McGraths teammates get because of the pressure he built, that aren't reflected on his record but in the match results? McGrath may have been occasionally blunted, but he rarely if ever bowled bad.

Agree to disagree there, as I view some other upsides to Steyn’s record as well.

 

[subshakerz]

I loved Steyn when on song but I think my impression of his is framed on the 2009 series in SA vs Aus.

He was just coming out of the 2008 Aus series win and was the world's best bowler, with the 10fer in Melbourne still fresh.

Yet in the first two tests, he was bowling some of the most rank short and wide filth I have ever seen from a world class bowler in their prime, and newbies like Phil Hughes and North were spanking him around like a club bowler. I think to this day, he lost them that series, though he came good in the last test when it was too late.

And I noticed this tendency in him blowing hot and cold last throughout his career.

 

[shortpitched713]

The problem is folks here are forgetting that Steyn was capable of bowling trash too often that cost his teams majorly.

The rose colored glasses coming out again.

Every bowler has bowled trash at some point or another. Whether it's one paced, predictable, bit innacurate, due to tiredness, or whatever, they've all bowled trash and got hit.

We simply don't remember the older ones spells of it as clearly as we do Steyn's because Steyn's haven't yet been pushed out of our mind's memories by an endless loop of highlights that we remember the older ones for.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Steyn went for more runs because he aggressively pitched it up more , constantly enticing batsmen to drive unlike pussies like McGrath and Ambrose. A true big dick strike bowler.

 

[kyear2]

Hadlee was a lone warrior, whereas Mcgrath bowled in a stronger attack. That also needs to be considered. Whatever chances outside the three countries you mentioned, Hadlee capitalised on well: brilliant in India(equal to Mcgrath), Pak(early in his career, not a big problem) and a decent series in WI. But maybe Mcgrath played in a wider range of conditions and maybe I switch back to him.

I hear this lone warrior argument, but they also massively benefit from it as well. The wpm, cleaning up the tail, taking advantage of good conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

The rose colored glasses coming out again.

Every bowler has bowled trash at some point or another. Whether it's one paced, predictable, bit innacurate, due to tiredness, or whatever, they've all bowled trash and got hit.

We simply don't remember the older ones spells of it as clearly as we do Steyn's because Steyn's haven't yet been pushed out of our mind's memories by an endless loop of highlights that we remember the older ones for.

No mate. I saw ATGs like Wasim, Ambrose and McGrath throughout the 90s and onwards. Even in their latter days, Wasim and Ambrose were still played respectfully. They rarely had shockers. McGrath even rarer.

Steyn is like Waqar in his MO, willing to pitch it up and get hit but also get the edges. However, I have too many memories of him getting stick.

 

[subshakerz]

Steyn went for more runs because he aggressively pitched it up more , constantly enticing batsmen to drive unlike pussies like McGrath and Ambrose. A true big dick strike bowler.

Sure you do what works for you.

But if the swing ain't there or your radar is off, that strategy will get you mauled.

 

[shortpitched713]

No mate. I saw ATGs like Wasim, Ambrose and McGrath throughout the 90s and onwards. Even in their latter days, Wasim and Ambrose were still played respectfully. They rarely had shockers. McGrath even rarer.

Steyn is like Waqar in his MO, willing to pitch it up and get hit but also get the edges. However, I have too many memories of him getting stick.

Have no problem with the remainder, actually agree the MO is more like Waqar or Donald's (which has it's plusses and minuses). It's the bold which I think is more psychological than objective.

 

[subshakerz]

Have no problem with the remainder, actually agree the MO is more like Waqar or Donald's (which has it's plusses and minuses). It's the bold which I think is more psychological than objective.

It isn't just psychological. Steyn along with Waqar and Rabada have unusually high ERs. That is the cost of their low SRs, they get beaten up more.

 

[kyear2]

Agreed, but I’m looking at the overall picture. And that is a caveat in his record. But Hadlee and Mcgrath have equal caveats too

I know that you have provided you context or explanation for this numbers and comparisons to the opponents, but Steyn's record against Australia and England doesn't allow him into the GOAT conversation for me.

Doesn't make him any less 4th, just not there with the top 3.

 

[shortpitched713]

It isn't just psychological. Steyn along with Waqar and Rabada have unusually high ERs. That is the cost of their low SRs, they get beaten up more.

So do you universally rate all of these high ER, low SR bowlers in the same average tier a rung lower?

 

[kyear2]

I am not sure if it's equal caveats though. While I agree matchwinning is important, if your day to day MO is going to cost your team matches and series just to get quicker wickets while leaking runs, I think that's a bit of a bigger problem.

How many wickets did McGraths teammates get because of the pressure he built, that aren't reflected on his record but in the match results? McGrath may have been occasionally blunted, but he rarely if ever bowled bad.

Good point.

I think McGrath and Maco with their skill sets, records and intangibles just place them selves at 1 and 2.

No dig towards Hadlee or Steyn

 

[OverratedSanity]

I know that you have provided you context or explanation for this numbers and comparisons to the opponents, but Steyn's record against Australia and England doesn't allow him into the GOAT conversation for me.

Doesn't make him any less 4th, just not there with the top 3.

Do you think Steyns record vs australia is any worse than Mcgraths vs SA ( Steyns is actually way better imo) ? Please be honest. I genuinely don't understand why this kind of stuff is not brought up when discussing some bowlers.