Dale Steyn vs Muralitharan

[capt_Luffy]

McGrath had a tougher go at home and did pretty well against SA in SA. SA was also quite possibly the 3rd best team of my lifetime and to add, playing them on the flat pitches of Australia.

Steyn also had a rough go of it vs England, home and away.

And as much as he gets credit for dominating the flat pitches era, outside of his performances in India, he really did most of his damage at home.

Then there's the fact that he was more "hittable" that some of the other guys in this tier, and could be more expensive.

And for the record I love Steyn and rate him higher than most here, I was probably the only one who had him in my first team and was ridiculed for it. I think he's the 4th best bowler to have played the game and know he had some great performances in Australia, but the cost of the wickets makes it hard for me to call it an overall ATG performance.

How exactly McGrath had it tougher than Steyn in Australia???

 

[subshakerz]

At the end of a career or after a major surgery as was the case with Ambrose, he had lost a bit of pace and penetration. He was no longer the player that he was before the surgery and by that point was considering retirement.
I'm not arguing if it was all time great or not, I'm saying if he's playing, that average means he's keeping it right and applying pressure when he's on.

And I rate Steyn above Ambrose (even if by one spot), so don't know why this is even being brought up.

Was Ambrose ATG standard in SA and Pakistan?

 

[kyear2]

@kyear2 is so reductionist when it comes stop this method. He rated Ambrose getting 15 wickets in 5 tests in Pakistan @25 as ATG material. Imran getting 28 wickets in 10 tests@28 is poor.

Fact is that average is important but it isn't everything.

2nd post you've brought up Imran, when neither him nor Ambrose are the subjects of the thread.

Pretty sure the other day I pointed out that, every thread and most posts are somehow related to, or in favor of two players or one topic.

Not you're just bringing up old **** to the benefit of a player we aren't even discussing.

I'm not playing along this time.

 

[kyear2]

How exactly McGrath had it tougher than Steyn in Australia???

Ambrose had it tougher in Australia than Steyn had it in South Africa... His home pitches were considerably more helpful.

Anything else?

 

[smash84]

As usual you sidestep the actual point that is addressed to you.

Would you rate McGrath vs SA better or Steyn vs Aus? It was a simple question.

@kyear2

Just a simple question for you. Don't skip.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Ambrose had it tougher in Australia than Steyn had it in South Africa... His home pitches were considerably more helpful.

Anything else?

WTF is Ambrose coming from in a discussion of Steyn and McGrath and why tf is it being compared how tough he had it in Australia and Steyn at home???

 

[honestbharani]

Dont get involved in a salty-kyear duet, luffy... Dont you have enough confusing things going on in college?

 

[subshakerz]

2nd post you've brought up Imran, when neither him nor Ambrose are the subjects of the thread.

Pretty sure the other day I pointed out that, every thread and most posts are somehow related to, or in favor of two players or one topic.

Not you're just bringing up old **** to the benefit of a player we aren't even discussing.

I'm not playing along this time.

And? We were going along on McGrath for a bit even though he is not on this thread either, and you had no problem agreeing with me or liking my posts. You can't act as if every time I bring up Imran it's out of order whereas it's par for the course.

My Imran point is just related to why you downgrade Steyn vs Aus. Because he averages three points too high.

Ambrose had it tougher in Australia than Steyn had it in South Africa... His home pitches were considerably more helpful.

Anything else?

Dude, we can read when you dodge like this. He was asking why do you give McGrath the flat pitch credit in Aus yet not to Steyn.

Feel free to ignore this though like you do every other inconsistency in your logic when pointed out.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Dont get involved in a salty-kyear duet, luffy... Dont you have enough confusing things going on in college?

Please don't bring up my nightmares

 

[_00_deathscar]

You also have little to no idea what you’re talking about half the time.

That’s generous.
I’m convinced subz has never actually watched a test match in his life, and only reads scorecards/Statsguru

 

[kyear2]

WTF is Ambrose coming from in a discussion of Steyn and McGrath and why tf is it being compared how tough he had it in Australia and Steyn at home???

I was specifically asked, I didn't bring it up.

 

[Bolo.]

At the end of a career or after a major surgery as was the case with Ambrose, he had lost a bit of pace and penetration. He was no longer the player that he was before the surgery and by that point was considering retirement.
I'm not arguing if it was all time great or not, I'm saying if he's playing, that average means he's keeping it right and applying pressure when he's on.

And I rate Steyn above Ambrose (even if by one spot), so don't know why this is even being brought up.

My comment is not specific to Ambose at all. It's just a principle that applicable to all top bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

And? We were going along on McGrath for a bit even though he is not on this thread either, and you had no problem agreeing with me or liking my posts. You can't act as if every time I bring up Imran it's out of order whereas it's par for the course.

My Imran point is just related to why you downgrade Steyn vs Aus. Because he averages three points too high.


Dude, we can read when you dodge like this. He was asking why do you give McGrath the flat pitch credit in Aus yet not to Steyn.

Feel free to ignore this though like you do every other inconsistency in your logic when pointed out.

Ok, let's start with big picture.

You rate Steyn just about the same place I do and don't have him in the GOAT discussion, the same way I don't. That Marshall vs McGrath and (for the both of us) to a lesser extent Hadlee. Steyn is just below.

That's due to him having a higher era, which is partly die to era, but also due to him always coming after batsmen and not backing down from pitching up the ball while going for wickets. It's admirable but comes with it's drawbacks. He was also more prone to losing his radar and being hittable. That's one reason.

He also gets credit for playing in the dead pitch era, but outside of India, wasn't exceptional away from home, doing most of his damage at home.

With regards to McGrath and SA, he had less of a problem with SA, than he did SA in Australia. His record against them in SA isn't bad at all. SA was also arguably the 3rd best team of the modern era and had a formidable batting line up, the Australia team that Steyn faced was less formidable. And he didn't do that much better against them at home than he did in Australia.

On top of Australia he also had massive problems in England, you don't get a pass for averaging over 30 vs England, and again, not appreciably better vs them at home either...

So it's not about giving one a pass, there are other reasons why I rate McGrath where I do, and Steyn where he is. I'm not giving McGrath a pass vs SA in Australia, but if that's the main point loss, then that's less than Steyn.

And again, I'm probably the only person who had Steyn in my AT XI and he's still one of the very few guys in contention for the 3rd bowling slot, do you have him there?

 

[subshakerz]

That’s generous.
I’m convinced subz has never actually watched a test match in his life, and only reads scorecards/Statsguru

On the contrary, that is the sort of thinking I oppose on this forum generally

 

[subshakerz]

Ok, let's start with big picture.

You rate Steyn just about the same place I do and don't have him in the GOAT discussion, the same way I don't. That Marshall vs McGrath and (for the both of us) to a lesser extent Hadlee. Steyn is just below.

That's due to him having a higher era, which is partly die to era, but also due to him always coming after batsmen and not backing down from pitching up the ball while going for wickets. It's admirable but comes with it's drawbacks. He was also more prone to losing his radar and being hittable. That's one reason.

He also gets credit for playing in the dead pitch era, but outside of India, wasn't exceptional away from home, doing most of his damage at home.

With regards to McGrath and SA, he had less of a problem with SA, than he did SA in Australia. His record against them in SA isn't bad at all. SA was also arguably the 3rd best team of the modern era and had a formidable batting line up, the Australia team that Steyn faced was less formidable. And he didn't do that much better against them at home than he did in Australia.

On top of Australia he also had massive problems in England, you don't get a pass for averaging over 30 vs England, and again, not appreciably better vs them at home either...

So it's not about giving one a pass, there are either reasons why I rate McGrath where I do, and Steyn where he is. I'm not giving Steyn a pass vs SA in Australia, but if that's the main point loss, then that's less than Steyn.

And again, I'm probably the only person who had Steyn in my AT XI and he's still one of the very few guys in contention for the 3rd bowling slot, do you have him there?

As you know, I also consider Steyn a bit below par in England. Not so in Australia where Steyn (I don't use the term ATG) was very good.

The question was specifically on why you rate McGrath vs SA OVERALL better than Steyn vs Aus OVERALL. And Steyn takes 5 WPM against Aus at a great SR. The lineups Steyn faced were fairly good.

I have no hesitation in saying Steyn was better vs Aus OVERALL and McGrath vs SA OVERALL is a bit of a blemish, whole asserting that McGrath is still superior to Steyn.

I think you have an issue with admitting any fault in Marshall and McGrath records.

 

[Johan]

McGrath>Steyn definitely

 

[Arachnodouche]

None of McGrath’s series performances in SA come close to Steyn in Aus 2008, because of how important the latter series was for SA, and because of the strength of the opposition faced, and cause Steyn was out and out the best performer.

'08's romanticized but besides that second Test where he couldn't do wrong with ball or bat, he was fairly easily negotiated.

W.r.t. the few posts above, I too find it hard to digest that a fast-bowling ATG, which Steyn undoubtedly is, can be manhandled in the manner that Sehwag, KP, and Mahela/Sanga did. Singular occasions/conditions, no doubt, and sure, Steyn's method fed into it in no small measure, but all other ATGs seemed capable of reverting to an economical gear when conditions were rough. You can glamorize that as Steyn's bullheadedness in the pursuit of wickets but it's equally fair to say he lacked the defensive skill that his rival ATGs had. It's as likely he'd get flogged by today's Bazball hacks as make them look ridiculous The likes of McGrath, not so much.

 

[subshakerz]

'08's romanticized but besides that second Test where he couldn't do wrong with ball or bat, he was fairly easily negotiated.

W.r.t. the few posts above, I too find it hard to digest that a fast-bowling ATG, which Steyn undoubtedly is, can be manhandled in the manner that Sehwag, KP, and Mahela/Sanga did. Singular occasions/conditions, no doubt, and sure, Steyn's method fed into it in no small measure, but all other ATGs seemed capable of reverting to an economical gear when conditions were rough. You can glamorize that as Steyn's bullheadedness in the pursuit of wickets but it's equally fair to say he lacked the defensive skill that his rival ATGs had. It's as likely he'd get flogged by today's Bazball hacks as make them look ridiculous The likes of McGrath, not so much.

Good post. What folks here are forgetting is that Steyn was the frontman for his attack. When he was taken apart, it often affected the quality of the entire attack too and morale of the team.

So I wasn't exaggerating when I said that as great a matchwinner he was, he lost his team many games too with wayward bowling. Even a series or two as well.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

'08's romanticized but besides that second Test where he couldn't do wrong with ball or bat, he was fairly easily negotiated.

W.r.t. the few posts above, I too find it hard to digest that a fast-bowling ATG, which Steyn undoubtedly is, can be manhandled in the manner that Sehwag, KP, and Mahela/Sanga did. Singular occasions/conditions, no doubt, and sure, Steyn's method fed into it in no small measure, but all other ATGs seemed capable of reverting to an economical gear when conditions were rough. You can glamorize that as Steyn's bullheadedness in the pursuit of wickets but it's equally fair to say he lacked the defensive skill that his rival ATGs had. It's as likely he'd get flogged by today's Bazball hacks as make them look ridiculous The likes of McGrath, not so much.

He has that caveat but other greats like Mcgrath and Hadlee do too. And you have to look at his overall record in Aus. 31 wickets in 6 matches @26-27 and an insane SR(keeping in the mind the context and era) is amazing.

 

[OverratedSanity]

It's as likely he'd get flogged by today's Bazball hacks as make them look ridiculous

Yeah I don't buy that one bit. This is a very pace bowler friendly era , the idea that he'd struggle is fanciful.