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Can Cummins make it to the top 10 pacers ever?

kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
I don't see why you need to argue this when I already conceded Steyn is ahead of Imran.

But yeah, you ignore Imran in WSC again, you devalue Imran's home record, you disregard Imran ATG's performances v WI. You make a big deal about Imran in India but don't for Ambrose in Pakistan.

You admitted why you will rate Imran behind because you think he is a cheat so I know you are coming up with reasoning to justify it post-fact.
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I don't ignore his WSC performances, that doesn't make his other series there disappear. I definitely don't ignore his performances in the WI, he's my 6th rated pacer and 8th overall.

My point is that neither was great I'm the SC overall.

And I've told you already, if I was docking Jim for anything, he wouldn't be in the top 10. But he's an ATG bowler.

But over the course of his career, was he Consistently ATG away from home? No.

No one's punishing him for anything.

Anyways, Cummins pretty much played his whole career in a bowling era, and his numbers just don't scream that. Not for top 10.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
I don't ignore his WSC performances, that doesn't make his other series there disappear. I definitely don't ignore his performances in the WI, he's my 6th rated pacer and 8th overall.
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You literally just ignored his WSC performance just now when you said he sucked in Australia.

If as you say we exclude his last series, Imran has 66 wickets in 13 tests @24 with his WSC in Australia. How is that 'struggling'?

We know how you knock Imran vs WI too in a way you don't microanalyze for any bowler.

kyear2 said:
My point is that neither was great I'm the SC overall.
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Lol only if you ignore an entire home record for Imran in SC and pretend it's the same for Ambrose. How disingenuous man.

kyear2 said:
And I've told you already, if I was docking Jim for anything, he wouldn't be in the top 10. But he's an ATG bowler.

But over the course of his career, was he Consistently ATG away from home? No.

No one's punishing him for anything.
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Dude you are already on record stating that you will not rate Imran ahead because you think he is a cheat. Every other reason you give is window dressing.
 
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R

Randomfan

Cricket Spectator
subshakerz said:
Donald underperformed against Australia which sort of holds him back for me. Cummins fixing his Eng record and showing some form in the SC would be enough to give him a nod.
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You have Wasim in the list, who underperfomed collectively against so many good sides. Why penalize Donald for underperfoming against one side?

1736001287711.png



Wasim when playing away also did not really set the world on fire compared to others.

1736001472222.png


Look at SR of Wasim, 62 with avg of 27.5 against some of the better sides during his career when playing away. All premium bowlers except IK have SR in 40s or low 50s. Over all also, avg of 26 and SR 58 does not indicate that Donald should miss at expense of Wasim. Look at Donald's SR and Avg.

Now if we are talking about BD/Zim/SL/NZ - Wasim was as good as anyone and no issue in chosing Wasim against them. But two were minnows and one made transition from minnow to non-minnow after 10 years career of Wasim.

It seems you are too harsh on Donald for underperforming against one opponent and at the same time underperformance by Wasim gets totally ignored.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Randomfan said:
You have Wasim in the list, who underperfomed collectively against so many good sides. Why penalize Donald for underperfoming against one side?

View attachment 44080



Wasim when playing away also did not really set the world on fire compared to others.

View attachment 44081


Look at SR of Wasim, 62 with avg of 27.5 against some of the better sides during his career when playing away. All premium bowlers except IK have SR in 40s or low 50s. Over all also, avg of 26 and SR 58 does not indicate that Donald should miss at expense of Wasim. Look at Donald's SR and Avg.

Now if we are talking about BD/Zim/SL/NZ - Wasim was as good as anyone and no issue in chosing Wasim against them. But two were minnows and one made transition from minnow to non-minnow after 10 years career of Wasim.

It seems you are too harsh on Donald for underperforming against one opponent and at the same time underperformance by Wasim gets totally ignored.
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It's a long debate but to sum up Wasims record is affected by a far longer career starting as a teen than Donald who didn't tour as much in most countries and had most of his career centered on his peak which worked to his statistical advantage.

And of course Australia was the top team of the era.
 
R

Randomfan

Cricket Spectator
subshakerz said:
It's a long debate but to sum up Wasims record is affected by a far longer career starting as a teen than Donald who didn't tour as much in most countries and had most of his career centered on his peak which worked to his statistical advantage.

And of course Australia was the top team of the era.
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You can remove the first 5 years of Wasim and see what he did compared to his peers,

Wasim away avg is still close to 27 with SR in 60. That's 29 tests in these venue and Donald has 26 tests. Same amount of play for both.

1736003713316.png
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Randomfan said:
You can remove the first 5 years of Wasim and see what he did compared to his peers,

Wasim away avg is still close to 27 with SR in 60. That's 29 tests in these venue and Donald has 26 tests. Same amount of play for both.

View attachment 44083
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Not including NZ and SL doesn't make any sense. They both were regular mid-tier standard test teams and England batting was hardly much better than them.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Randomfan said:
You have Wasim in the list, who underperfomed collectively against so many good sides. Why penalize Donald for underperfoming against one side?

View attachment 44080



Wasim when playing away also did not really set the world on fire compared to others.

View attachment 44081


Look at SR of Wasim, 62 with avg of 27.5 against some of the better sides during his career when playing away. All premium bowlers except IK have SR in 40s or low 50s. Over all also, avg of 26 and SR 58 does not indicate that Donald should miss at expense of Wasim. Look at Donald's SR and Avg.

Now if we are talking about BD/Zim/SL/NZ - Wasim was as good as anyone and no issue in chosing Wasim against them. But two were minnows and one made transition from minnow to non-minnow after 10 years career of Wasim.

It seems you are too harsh on Donald for underperforming against one opponent and at the same time underperformance by Wasim gets totally ignored.
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Yeah, there's those number and the higher than normal percentage of tail end wickets.

But that talent and ability during his prime was special. Also a lot of people conflate his odi performances and factors those in as well when rating him overall.
 
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