Can Cummins make it to the top 10 pacers ever?

[subshakerz]

That the cricket " bible" (no sacrilege intended) and the preeminent cricket website (which collected former players, captains and journalists to complete this exercise) both completed their all time teams and Wasim managed to make both?

Really?

In the NBA and the NFL the AP releases all Pro teams for each year and it factors heavily in their resume and legacy. Again when both leagues independently released top 50 / 75 teams, it represented who was the best of the very best. That was a higher honor than even the hall of Fame.

These two are the most credible and relatable possible resources and they both selected the same 7 names, what's a bigger honor than that?

Yet you discard the Wisden and elite ESPN panel player rankings while making these ATG XIs the end all be all

 

[Randomfan]

Damn, why are you trying to get me to change my mind?

What's your take on his captain and mentor, Imran?

I'm curious.

Good list btw I imagine PFK would have a different take on the matter though, lol.

I think in history of test cricket, many players have done well at home, but very few have done well away. Then you have best of the best who have done well against good teams away. That's the toughest test of any player because even ordinary looking home teams puts up a good fight and if you are playing against better teams away then it gets tough for even greats to stand out.

IK is simply the top 3 test all rounder for me. As a bowler alone, he goes much lower. Not sure exact spot, never thought about it,

As quick short cut to see quality of players - how well they did when playing away.

Taking all non-minnows during IK's career. we can see who did what in Avg and SR, I am not sure about quality of cirkcet in older era so limiting it to starting from 60s and ending it at IK's retirment.

IK - Away Avg 26-27 and SR 60 plus

Among his peers,

Garner, Holding, Marshall, Hadlee, Roberts all averaging sub 24 with SR sub 55. You have Lillee 24 avg with 55 SR. No one talks about Alderman and even he avg 25-26 with SR sub 55.

Not saying that Alderman is better than IK, only sharing why I don't rate IK that high among ATG bowlers.

Many fans talk about biased home umpiring and ball tampering. I think it muddies the discussion. Looking at only away performance for all player puts them at the same level field. No need to discuss if umpires were more or less biased in some country. Everyone faced the same away umpire in this list and had the same disadvanatge. It's a level playing field for all players.

How many greats in history have combination of away Avg of 26-27 & SR of 60 against non-minnows? IK has that.

I am hard pressed to name many. Yes, I am aware of some great series by IK, but peak and non-peak both are part of your career. Look at two best bowlers in his generation, Marshall and Hadlee. How far ahead they were.

Marshall/Hadlee - Avg 21-22 & SR sub 50

Many others like Garner, Roberts, Ambrose with sub 24 Avg & sub 55 SR

Then in last

IK - Avg 26 & SR 60 plus


So I don't know the exact place to rank, I never thought about it. Among the best as all rounder, but surely not among the best bowlers. It's not an elite bowler's output. I know he was ordinary initially, and great in middle and did not bowl later. But that's his collective output as a bowler. You don't get rated only for 35 best tests in your career. Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose, Steyn all are surely better. Bumrah is likely to join the list. Then you also have Roberts, Donald etc.

Having great home record is good, but it does not allow us to do apple to apple comparison because that's not level playing field in older era and we get into discussion of tampering, umpring etc being different in differnet venues. But away was level playing for everyone. Also, players like Marshall, Hadlee, Mcgrath, Ambrose, Steyn, Donald, Roberts etc had gun record at home as well so it was not as lop sided as IK. IK has like 20 avg and 50 SR at home against non-minnows but it jumps to 26-27 avg and 60 plus SR away. No one else had such disparity. Out of these two records, only away record can be compared apple to apple for all players in that era. Even across era, away is a far better short cut otherwise someone like Jadeja might get rated as an ATG bowler.

May be near 8-10 spot due to great record at home. Some may argue for even lower, don't know. Certainly not a candidate for top 6-7 test bowlers. We have to torture the logic to make the case. No top 6-7 test bowlers in such a long history should have combination of avg of 26-27 away with SR of 60. True quality of bowlers can be easily judged based on how they did away in all eras.

When all said and done, actual performance ( low avg and low SR ) counts despite all other noise. That's how you take 20 wickets cheaply and win tests. Greats of the game have done it in away conditions because that's the toughest job in test cricket. Across era can have variables but you can still see who stands out in their own era and by how much. IK stands out in a negative way in Avg and SR when playing away.

I shared my opinion with thoughts behind it. I will leave it upto you to make up you own mind.


Away performance of IK compared to peer group:

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think in history of test cricket, many players have done well at home, but very few have done well away. Then you have best of the best who have done well against good teams away. That's the toughest test of any player because even ordinary looking home teams puts up a good fight and if you are playing against better teams away then it gets tough for even greats to stand out.

IK is simply the top 3 test all rounder for me. As a bowler alone, he goes much lower. Not sure exact spot, never thought about it,

As quick short cut to see quality of players - how well they did when playing away.

Taking all non-minnows during IK's career. we can see who did what in Avg and SR, I am not sure about quality of cirkcet in older era so limiting it to starting from 60s and ending it at IK's retirment.

IK - Away Avg 26-27 and SR 60 plus

Among his peers,

Garner, Holding, Marshall, Hadlee, Roberts all averaging sub 24 with SR sub 55. You have Lillee 24 avg with 55 SR. No one talks about Alderman and even he avg 25-26 with SR sub 55.

Not saying that Alderman is better than IK, only sharing why I don't rate IK that high among ATG bowlers.

Many fans talk about biased home umpiring and ball tampering. I think it muddies the discussion. Looking at only away performance for all player puts them at the same level field. No need to discuss if umpires were more or less biased in some country. Everyone faced the same away umpire in this list and had the same disadvanatge. It's a level playing field for all players.

How many greats in history have combination of away Avg of 26-27 & SR of 60 against non-minnows? IK has that.

I am hard pressed to name many. Yes, I am aware of some great series by IK, but peak and non-peak both are part of your career. Look at two best bowlers in his generation, Marshall and Hadlee. How far ahead they were.

Marshall/Hadlee - Avg 21-22 & SR sub 50

Many others like Garner, Roberts, Ambrose with sub 24 Avg & sub 55 SR

Then in last

IK - Avg 26 & SR 60 plus


So I don't know the exact place to rank, I never thought about it. Among the best as all rounder, but surely not among the best bowlers. It's not an elite bowler's output. I know he was ordinary initially, and great in middle and did not bowler later. But that's his collective output as a bowler. You don't rated only for 35 best tests in your career. Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose, Steyn all are surely better. Bumrah is likely to join the list. Then you also have Roberts, Donald etc.

Having great home record does not do mean much because that's not level playing field in older era and we get into discussion of tampering, umpring etc being different in differnet venues. But away was level playing for everyone. Also, players like Marshall, Hadlee, Mcgrath, Ambrose, Steyn, Donald, Roberts etc had gun record at home as well so it was not as lop sided as IK. IK has like 20 avg and 50 SR at home against non-minnows but it jumps to 26-27 avg and 60 plus SR away. No one else had such disparity. Out of these two records, only away record can be comapred apple to apple for all players if they happen to play during same era.

May be near 8-10 spot due to great record at home. Some may argue for even lower, don't know. Certainly not a candidate for top 6-7 test bowlers. We have to torture the logic to make the case. No top 6-7 test bowlers in such a long history should have combination of avg of 26-27 away with SR of 60. True quality of bowlers can be easily judged based on how they did away in all eras.

When all said and done, actual performance ( low avg and low SR ) counts despite all other noise. That's how you take 20 wickets cheaply and win tests. Greats of the game have done it in away conditions because that's the toughest job in test cricket. Across era can have variables but you can still see who stands out in their own era and by how much. IK stands out in a negative way in Avg and SR when playing away.

I shared my opinion with thoughts behind it. I will leave it upto you to make up you own mind.


Away performance of IK compared to peer group:


View attachment 44089

I think that's the problem with taking the output average a little too on the face value. Imran is a legit ATG in WI and Great in Australia and England, though you will look at his no.s and will go "meh, too high". Kumble's best series of all time is his 2004 tour of Australia; he averaged 29. Average is important, but the volume of wickets and the impact are more important honestly. Also, none of those other pacers really came anywhere close to replicating Imran's home record, which imo is only behind Murali; in some absolute Pakistani roads. Lillee himself only toured England regularly which was a top country, skipping SC and hardly playing in WI; and getting battered on in the few matches he played in Pakistan.

 

[subshakerz]

I think that's the problem with taking the output average a little too on the face value. Imran is a legit ATG in WI and Great in Australia and England, though you will look at his no.s and will go "meh, too high". Kumble's best series of all time is his 2004 tour of Australia; he averaged 29. Average is important, but the volume of wickets and the impact are more important honestly. Also, none of those other pacers really came anywhere close to replicating Imran's home record, which imo is only behind Murali; in some absolute Pakistani roads. Lillee himself only toured England regularly which was a top country, skipping SC and hardly playing in WI; and getting battered on in the few matches he played in Pakistan.

Yeah unfortunately this is the problem with doing reductive raw average analysis. You lose all context.

For example, Imran has a 22 year bowling career, that's far beyond any other major pacer in history. The guy started at 18 and was still bowling at 39. That's going to affect your numbers if you are a pacer.

 

[kyear2]

I think in history of test cricket, many players have done well at home, but very few have done well away. Then you have best of the best who have done well against good teams away. That's the toughest test of any player because even ordinary looking home teams puts up a good fight and if you are playing against better teams away then it gets tough for even greats to stand out.

IK is simply the top 3 test all rounder for me. As a bowler alone, he goes much lower. Not sure exact spot, never thought about it,

As quick short cut to see quality of players - how well they did when playing away.

Taking all non-minnows during IK's career. we can see who did what in Avg and SR, I am not sure about quality of cirkcet in older era so limiting it to starting from 60s and ending it at IK's retirment.

IK - Away Avg 26-27 and SR 60 plus

Among his peers,

Garner, Holding, Marshall, Hadlee, Roberts all averaging sub 24 with SR sub 55. You have Lillee 24 avg with 55 SR. No one talks about Alderman and even he avg 25-26 with SR sub 55.

Not saying that Alderman is better than IK, only sharing why I don't rate IK that high among ATG bowlers.

Many fans talk about biased home umpiring and ball tampering. I think it muddies the discussion. Looking at only away performance for all player puts them at the same level field. No need to discuss if umpires were more or less biased in some country. Everyone faced the same away umpire in this list and had the same disadvanatge. It's a level playing field for all players.

How many greats in history have combination of away Avg of 26-27 & SR of 60 against non-minnows? IK has that.

I am hard pressed to name many. Yes, I am aware of some great series by IK, but peak and non-peak both are part of your career. Look at two best bowlers in his generation, Marshall and Hadlee. How far ahead they were.

Marshall/Hadlee - Avg 21-22 & SR sub 50

Many others like Garner, Roberts, Ambrose with sub 24 Avg & sub 55 SR

Then in last

IK - Avg 26 & SR 60 plus


So I don't know the exact place to rank, I never thought about it. Among the best as all rounder, but surely not among the best bowlers. It's not an elite bowler's output. I know he was ordinary initially, and great in middle and did not bowl later. But that's his collective output as a bowler. You don't get rated only for 35 best tests in your career. Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose, Steyn all are surely better. Bumrah is likely to join the list. Then you also have Roberts, Donald etc.

Having great home record is good, but it does not allow us to do apple to apple comparison because that's not level playing field in older era and we get into discussion of tampering, umpring etc being different in differnet venues. But away was level playing for everyone. Also, players like Marshall, Hadlee, Mcgrath, Ambrose, Steyn, Donald, Roberts etc had gun record at home as well so it was not as lop sided as IK. IK has like 20 avg and 50 SR at home against non-minnows but it jumps to 26-27 avg and 60 plus SR away. No one else had such disparity. Out of these two records, only away record can be compared apple to apple for all players in that era. Even across era, away is a far better short cut otherwise someone like Jadeja might get rated as an ATG bowler.

May be near 8-10 spot due to great record at home. Some may argue for even lower, don't know. Certainly not a candidate for top 6-7 test bowlers. We have to torture the logic to make the case. No top 6-7 test bowlers in such a long history should have combination of avg of 26-27 away with SR of 60. True quality of bowlers can be easily judged based on how they did away in all eras.

When all said and done, actual performance ( low avg and low SR ) counts despite all other noise. That's how you take 20 wickets cheaply and win tests. Greats of the game have done it in away conditions because that's the toughest job in test cricket. Across era can have variables but you can still see who stands out in their own era and by how much. IK stands out in a negative way in Avg and SR when playing away.

I shared my opinion with thoughts behind it. I will leave it upto you to make up you own mind.


Away performance of IK compared to peer group:


View attachment 44089

Nice, was just interested in your opinion because some call be biased for saying the same thing.

I have him 8th all time, just ahead of Lillee, O'Reilly, Donald and Wasim and in a tier with them. Think that's fair.

 

[subshakerz]

Nice, was just interested in your opinion because some call be biased for saying the same thing.

I have him 8th all time, just ahead of Lillee, O'Reilly, Donald and Wasim and in a tier with them. Think that's fair.

You're not biased on Imran the bowler but Imran the entire cricketer.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah unfortunately this is the problem with doing reductive raw average analysis. You lose all context.

For example, Imran has a 22 year bowling career, that's far beyond any other major pacer in history. The guy started at 18 and was still bowling at 39. That's going to affect your numbers if you are a pacer.

He played one match in '71, 3 in '74 all in England and no one factors that into his record.
He also had a couple years in-between when he didn't bowl and short "retirement"

When we're taking about Sobers, do we take away the first 4 years when figuring out his average?

I rate him from '76, though if you really want to keep using the longevity argument we can from '74 as well.

 

[kyear2]

I think that's the problem with taking the output average a little too on the face value. Imran is a legit ATG in WI and Great in Australia and England, though you will look at his no.s and will go "meh, too high". Kumble's best series of all time is his 2004 tour of Australia; he averaged 29. Average is important, but the volume of wickets and the impact are more important honestly. Also, none of those other pacers really came anywhere close to replicating Imran's home record, which imo is only behind Murali; in some absolute Pakistani roads. Lillee himself only toured England regularly which was a top country, skipping SC and hardly playing in WI; and getting battered on in the few matches he played in Pakistan.

28 is not great, and even when he averaged low in Australia, the wpm was low. He was good and followed that up with good WSC performances.

There's a reason no one rates Imran based on his home record, if the did he would be top 2 or 3. Everyone knows why, it's not a secret.

And Imran is rated here ahead of Lillee, so not sure of the point.

 

[subshakerz]

He played one match in '71, 3 in '74 all in England and no one factors that into his record.
He also had a couple years in-between when he didn't bowl and short "retirement"

When we're taking about Sobers, do we take away the first 4 years when figuring out his average?

I rate him from '76, though if you really want to keep using the longevity argument we can from '74 as well.

I personally consider Imran from 74 to 89 as basically his bowling career.

74 was his first formative England series.

89 was when he realised he couldn't perform as a frontline pacer anymore and needed to switch to part-time bowling and move up as a regular bat.

 

[kyear2]

You're not biased on Imran the bowler but Imran the entire cricketer.

Dear God how?

I have rated 8th as a bowler, the exact same place the forum does. Exact.

I then have him more of less joint 9th along with Warne.

If you're the 8th ranked bowler and ranked 9th over all, and ahead of bowlers rated ahead of you like Murali, Ambrose and even Steyn, doesn't that mean that the batting is included? I even have him ahead of Hammond (who's ahead of Kallis btw), who I think is gravely underrated as a cricketer.

How is he underrated as a cricketer? I literally just asked someone how could Kallis be their 17th best batsman yet a too 10 cricketer. It makes no sense.



Please tell me how I have underrated him. Please, I'm waiting.

 

[Randomfan]

I think that's the problem with taking the output average a little too on the face value. Imran is a legit ATG in WI and Great in Australia and England, though you will look at his no.s and will go "meh, too high". Kumble's best series of all time is his 2004 tour of Australia; he averaged 29. Average is important, but the volume of wickets and the impact are more important honestly. Also, none of those other pacers really came anywhere close to replicating Imran's home record, which imo is only behind Murali; in some absolute Pakistani roads. Lillee himself only toured England regularly which was a top country, skipping SC and hardly playing in WI; and getting battered on in the few matches he played in Pakistan.

Who is questioning legit ATG status of IK here. I even put him among the top 10 test pacers. Is that not ATG status?

I pointed out his huge disparity in home and away record which stands out in a negative way when compared to other greats. He is still one of the greats. When you are comparing greats in history, you are going to hear points for and against. It hardly means that a player career is getting donwplayed.

Yes, Lillee did not play everywhere, but many others have played in all away venues along side IK. Should we ignore wide gulf in away performance for all other greats and IK? As I said earlier, home record for everyone had different conditions and you can't make any apple to apple comparison, but you can certainly make apple to apple comparison and he falls short there. Also, away for IK will be all venues outside those Paksitani roads and for others it will include same Paksitani roads. Are we saying that IK's had far inferior skills than other bowlers to have good avg and SR outside of Paksitani roads. Because everyone else bowled in the same enviorument when playing away and for them it includes those Pakistani roads as well.

His great home Avg and SR stands out.among his peers.
His not so great away Avg and SR also stands out among his peers.

Yes, we all know great away series of IK and many other bowlers. That's part of their career. If he had no great away series then with away avg of 26-27 and SR of 60, he would have been rated far below. Those great away series is the reason he is in discussion for top 10 test bowlers. Otherwise no bowler with such away record will make the cut for discussion for top 10 pacers based only on good numbers at home.

Clearly, I am not ignoring his impact or good series away.

 

[kyear2]

I personally consider Imran from 74 to 89 as basically his bowling career.

74 was his first formative England series.

89 was when he realised he couldn't perform as a frontline pacer anymore and needed to switch to part-time bowling and move up as a regular bat.

And that's fine. But you then want to use his batting numbers from '89 onwards to boosts his batting credentials, boosting him as an all rounder.

You can't have it both ways.

I rate him basically from '76 to '89 period.

 

[subshakerz]

28 is not great, and even when he averaged low in Australia, the wpm was low. He was good and followed that up with good WSC performances.

Dude, I am going to break this for you once and for all so you can stop this nonsense about Imran struggling in Aus with high average and low WPM.

You already agreed that his 1990 series was an outlier we can exclude since he was basically a regular bat and part time bowler then.

His other series came in 84/85 when he played two tests as a pure bat and didn't bowl a ball as he had his shin injury.

Ignoring those, there are his series in Australia:

76/77: 18 wickets @ 26 breakthrough series against Aus the best side in the world, including his 12fer to draw the series

78: WSC 25 wickets @20, arguably the best bowler of the series

78/79: 7 wickets @40, poor series

80/81: 16 wickets@19 against a full strength Aus side

So in his actual bowling prime above, he took 66 wickets in 13 tests@24.

That's the reality of his Aus record. It's nothing short of very good.

Can you please acknowledge this?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I don’t think it makes sense to say average 25 away means you are not that impressive away. You have to look at the record collectively. Imran was AtG at home, in WI, great in Eng, very good in Aus(considering WSC as well), decent in India and NZ

 

[subshakerz]

And that's fine. But you then want to use his batting numbers from '89 onwards to boosts his batting credentials, boosting him as an all rounder.

You can't have it both ways.

I rate him basically from '76 to '89 period.

No I have always argued his batting is inflated by a few points by the tailend. I only include the final numbers because the other posters here insist on using those end career bowling numbers. But I am fine cutting him off at 89 if all agree.

 

[subshakerz]

Who is questioning legit ATG status of IK here. I even put him among the top 10 test pacers. Is that not ATG status?

I pointed out his huge disparity in home and away record which stands out in a negative way when compared to other greats. He is still one of the greats. When you are comparing greats in history, you are going to hear points for and against. It hardly means that a player career is getting donwplayed.

Yes, Lillee did not play everywhere, but many others have played in all away venues along side IK. Should we ignore wide gulf in away performance for all other greats and IK? As I said earlier, home record for everyone had different conditions and you can't make any apple to apple comparison, but you can certainly make apple to apple comparison and he falls short there. Also, away for IK will be all venues outside those Paksitani roads and for others it will include same Paksitani roads. Are we saying that IK's had far inferior skills than other bowlers to have good avg and SR outside of Paksitani roads. Because everyone else bowled in the same enviorument when playing away and for them it includes those Pakistani roads as well.

His great home Avg and SR stands out.among his peers.
His not so great away Avg and SR also stands out among his peers.

Yes, we all know great away series of IK and many other bowlers. That's part of their career. If he had no great away series then with away avg of 26-27 and SR of 60, he would have been rated far below. Those great away series is the reason he is in discussion for top 10 test bowlers. Otherwise no bowler with such away record will make the cut for discussion for top 10 pacers based only on good numbers at home.

Clearly, I am not ignoring his impact or good series away.

Two major problems with your analysis:

- You don't consider exceptional length of career. Most of us acknowledge that his early couple and late couple years arent really reflective of Imran the bowler

- If you consider raw average as a cutoff, his exceptional record for example in the WI of 48 wickets in 8 tests @25, which most of us consider ATG level, has to be considered somehow below world class. It's reductive.

 

[Randomfan]

Nice, was just interested in your opinion because some call be biased for saying the same thing.

I have him 8th all time, just ahead of Lillee, O'Reilly, Donald and Wasim and in a tier with them. Think that's fair.

I don't think I can argue against 8-10 spot, I am myself putting him in the 8-10 range. Does not seem biased to me at all. In fact putting him higher will be biased.

He is the best Pakistani test pacer for me, because Wasim has very ordinary record home and away both against better teams. I personally don't buy this logic of giving extra brownie points for Pakistani roads and that's due to non-cricketing factors. Also, if you claim to be a top performer, what happened outside of those Pakistani roads, which are supposed to be better for pacers. You can't have it both ways. Only uniform environment is outside home for all bowlers because everyone gets to bowl around half of their career and umpiring/conditions etc were same. Some more and some less, but it gives a far better picture when comparing.

Look at Boland. Unplayable in seaming conditions at home. If he had developed earlier and just racked up 200 wickets in same conditions, he will still be a vastly inferior than great bowlers due to not having skills to do well in away conditions. You simply can't find many examples of great bowlers not appearing in good away list, but you can find many not so great players in good home list. It separates players in tiers and works extremely well as short cut. Home is still important, but not same as away when it comes to finding really great players.

Before some one interpret my this comment as Boland equals IK, I am not saying that. I was trying to make a point that hyping away performance is justified because you can't find many examples of non-greats having great away stats. For home it's not true. Home stats are no way equal to away stats for many reasons when it comes to figuring out greatness of players.

 

[kyear2]

Dear God how?

I have rated 8th as a bowler, the exact same place the forum does. Exact.

I then have him more of less joint 9th along with Warne.

If you're the 8th ranked bowler and ranked 9th over all, and ahead of bowlers rated ahead of you like Murali, Ambrose and even Steyn, doesn't that mean that the batting is included? I even have him ahead of Hammond (who's ahead of Kallis btw), who I think is gravely underrated as a cricketer.

How is he underrated as a cricketer? I literally just asked someone how could Kallis be their 17th best batsman yet a too 10 cricketer. It makes no sense.



Please tell me how I have underrated him. Please, I'm waiting.

@subshakerz still waiting.

 

[subshakerz]

I then have him more of less joint 9th along with Warne.

Yeah this forum puts Imran as a top five if not solid top 3 cricketer, as does much of the cricket public.

You ideally wouldn't want him in your top ten but you have to squeeze him in.

It's pretty clear you downgrade him. Which is fine as you told us why.

 

[subshakerz]

Dude, I am going to break this for you once and for all so you can stop this nonsense about Imran struggling in Aus with high average and low WPM.

You already agreed that his 1990 series was an outlier we can exclude since he was basically a regular bat and part time bowler then.

His other series came in 84/85 when he played two tests as a pure bat and didn't bowl a ball as he had his shin injury.

Ignoring those, there are his series in Australia:

76/77: 18 wickets @ 26 breakthrough series against Aus the best side in the world, including his 12fer to draw the series

78: WSC 25 wickets @20, arguably the best bowler of the series

78/79: 7 wickets @40, poor series

80/81: 16 wickets@19 against a full strength Aus side

So in his actual bowling prime above, he took 66 wickets in 13 tests@24.

That's the reality of his Aus record. It's nothing short of very good.

Can you please acknowledge this?

@kyear2 can you acknowledge this