Can Cummins make it to the top 10 pacers ever?

[Arachnödouche2.0]

Certainly thought so during the last BGT in Australia but he goes missing too often for someone thought of so highly. He's lost a yard on average and isn't getting any younger, will likely finish as the best of Australia's second tier of seamers.

 

[kevinw]

I can't say for anyone for the pre Lillee or Thompson era but from the mid 70s onwards he's pretty much tied at first with McGrath.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yeah it's close between them.

He is just annoyed because he thinks I go after Lara too hard, so he wants revenge by just mindlessly going after Imran.

Haha if I wanted to go after Imran, I can easily pull a kyear2 but I won't. Im just pointing out your hypocrisy.

 

[subshakerz]

Haha if I wanted to go after Imran, I can easily pull a kyear2 but I won't. Im just pointing out your hypocrisy.

There is no hypocrisy. I have explained every position rationally and even admitted where I changed my mind. You won't address my points though.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Ambrose did have a fine WC in 1996 in SC didn't he ? A different format obviously but his bowling then gives me the confidence that he would do well in India if he played in tests.

Imran in Australia was fine too. Not earth shatteringly awesome but pretty good.

It is hard for any bowler to tick every box. We shouldn't go down this route.

Honestly, I'm just pulling Subz's leg. Some good natured ribbing every now and then is good for the heart!!! Lol lol

 

[subshakerz]

Honestly, I'm just pulling Subz's leg. Some good natured ribbing every now and then is good for the heart!!! Lol lol

Its ok.

 

[Coronis]

Rabada is more inconsistent but is deadlier imo. The Holding to Cummins' Garner. I believe by retirement they will stand that way.

I would’ve said Steyn vs say Ambrose or McGrath.

 

[Coronis]

He had a great away ashes in 2019 tbf. Lillee also never had a good series in the subcontinent.

Cummins’ 2019 gets overshadowed by Smith’s storyline. He was genuinely brilliant that series.

 

[ma1978]

Donald vs Cummins is a real fight I see, and I back Cummins.

no not even close

 

[ma1978]

Aren’t you disqualified from being an ATG if you average three points lower than your contemporary

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes cummins is already proven in english conditions. It just that he needs good tour of either ind or sl to tick all boxes

It's not really about proving himself just in England really. His record in England is very good but not really Great. He has one Great series and one barish in England. I would expect atleast another Great Ashes from him to put him ahead of Lillee, someone equally good in Australia but who tore through the English away.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Aren’t you disqualified from being an ATG if you average three points lower than your contemporary

So Akram isn’t an ATG since he averages nearly 3 points less than Ambrose

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Aren’t you disqualified from being an ATG if you average three points lower than your contemporary

So Ashwin isn’t an ATG?

 

[ma1978]

So Ashwin isn’t an ATG?

apples and oranges

 

[kyear2]

So far I have

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Imran
Ambrose
Lillee
Wasim
Donald
Trueman/Lindwall

Assuming a full flourishing career for both, Bumrah makes it into the top five and Cummins edges out Donald to complete a new top 10.

These are the moments right now that he needs to stop up and prove he deserves to be in this discussion.

That aside, I don't see him being better than Donald.

 

[kyear2]

Nice try:

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Ambrose
Imran
Lillee
Wasim
Donald
Trueman

He does try though, lol

 

[subshakerz]

He does try though, lol

You may disagree but I think Steyn, Ambrose and Imran are all quite close, like Lara, Hutton and Smith in the batting top tier.

I recently decided to edge Steyn over Imran even though I think Steyn was more inconsistent and not as good in his peak, but Steyn simply has an incredibly long peak of 10 years and 75 tests on top taking 5 WPM which for a fast bowler is very impressive. None of Ambrose, Imran, Marshall and Wasim have it that long.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah I changed that. I expanded my top tier to include Lara since I don't think using raw averages is a good approach to determine these sorts of things even if Lara was poorer away. It's too reductive. Look at context.

For example, Steyn averages 24.9 away. Are you saying you are only keeping him in your top tier because of 0.1 points? Sounds silly.

And of course Ambrose playing 34/46 of his away tests in preferred countries Eng and Aus while skipping India and SL is a big reason for him averaging less away.

Once you go through Imran's record with the context of him having a longer career than any fast bowler in cricket history you realise not to take numbers at face value.

Not going to get into this again. But context.

Steyn played in the flat pitch era, hence why it was expected that he struggle away.

Pakistan, according to you was the most difficult of home conditions, yet it's where he did best and struggled in Australia and India.

In an era where Hadlee and Marshall averaged basically the same home and away, Imran didn't. Even if we remove his last series vs Australia his average is 27. I also don't hold his first English tour against him.

You keep being up the SC, but Imran struggled in India and feasted in SC who were minnows, so not like he excelled there either. The s/c isn't just his home games.

No one is saying Imran isn't right up there, but you know the difference between the away pitches Steyn and Imran played on.

 

[subshakerz]

Not going to get into this again. But context.

Steyn played in the flat pitch era, hence why it was expected that he struggle away.

Pakistan, according to you was the most difficult of home conditions, yet it's where he did best and struggled in Australia and India.

In an era where Hadlee and Marshall averaged basically the same home and away, Imran didn't. Even if we remove his last series vs Australia his average is 27. I also don't hold his first English tour against him.

You keep being up the SC, but Imran struggled in India and feasted in SC who were minnows, so not like he excelled there either. The s/c isn't just his home games.

No one is saying Imran isn't right up there, but you know the difference between the away pitches Steyn and Imran played on.

I don't see why you need to argue this when I already conceded Steyn is ahead of Imran.

But yeah, you ignore Imran in WSC again, you devalue Imran's home record, you disregard Imran ATG's performances v WI. You make a big deal about Imran in India but don't for Ambrose in Pakistan.

You admitted why you will rate Imran behind because you think he is a cheat so I know you are coming up with reasoning to justify it post-fact.

 

[Coronis]

Not going to get into this again. But I’ll get into this again.