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Am I the only one here who rates Sunil Gavaskar slightly above Viv Richards in Test?

kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
capt_Luffy said:
Which I think is a bit unfair since he only played the whole quartet away once and while no way good; managed to atleast score a century. Not much impressive, but given the succeeding home series and the previous tour vs Holding and Roberts; I do think people like Kyear takes the not good against pace claims to far.
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See this is where the disconnect lies. I say he's bottom end of the top 10 all time, same category with Chappell, Hammond, Ponting, etc.
Never said he wasn't a great batsman, what I have said is that he never thrived on quick surfaces against us. He was struggle on the quick surfaces and pile up on the slower ones.

In the 80's he supposedly averaged below 40 in every country away from home and basically averaged the same as GG. So yeah, I don't place him in the absolute highest of tiers, doesn't mean I don't think he was a phenomenal player.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
kyear2 said:
See this is where the disconnect lies. I say he's bottom end of the top 10 all time, same category with Chappell, Hammond, Ponting, etc.
Never said he wasn't a great batsman, what I have said is that he never thrived on quick surfaces against us. He was struggle on the quick surfaces and pile up on the slower ones.

In the 80's he supposedly averaged below 40 in every country away from home and basically averaged the same as GG. So yeah, I don't place him in the absolute highest of tiers, doesn't mean I don't think he was a phenomenal player.
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In the 80s he averaged 40+ in both Australia and Pakistan. That's the problem of blindly reading stats as otherwise you won't had came to the conclusion that he struggled in the 80s away. It's like saying Viv averaged 45 without 1976.

66 in Kensington, Perth and Adelaide centuries vs Peak Thomson; thrashed WI everywhere in his first tour and so did Australia in his last. His only failings away is by far 83, which to be fair I doubt I can name any batsman to succeed. Viv is undoubtedly miles ahead better in fast surfaces like SENA, but Gavaskar is also that Much ahead in SC.
 
P

Pant Kameez

School Boy/Girl Captain
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
capt_Luffy said:
In the 80s he averaged 40+ in both Australia and Pakistan. That's the problem of blindly reading stats as otherwise you won't had came to the conclusion that he struggled in the 80s away. It's like saying Viv averaged 45 without 1976.

66 in Kensington, Perth and Adelaide centuries vs Peak Thomson; thrashed WI everywhere in his first tour and so did Australia in his last. His only failings away is by far 83, which to be fair I doubt I can name any batsman to succeed. Viv is undoubtedly miles ahead better in fast surfaces like SENA, but Gavaskar is also that Much ahead in SC.
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Agreed except I feel Viv in SC was more proved than Gavaskar in SENA(not as bad outside 1980 in Pak as Gavaskar in England outside 78), and in India Viv was good enough(would definitely average 50+ but he struggled in 83 cause he had an eye problem which was rectified with a surgery next year) and has a sublime 4th innings century. Basically Viv had proved he could compete against reverse swing and spin and be the best ala the 1980 series where in a low scoring series and against peak Imran(and an amazing attack overal, Qadir, Qasim and Sarfaraz Nawaz) he dominated everyone and was head and shoulders the best. In comparison, the 78 series was a high scoring one, and for me Gavaskar’s reputation in Aus is dented by never dominating the best(Lillee). Also feel Viv had more bowler friendly wickets at home to contend with. Another reason I feel Viv is better is because of his peak
 
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capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
HouHsiaoHsien said:
Agreed except I feel Viv in SC was more proved than Gavaskar in SENA(not as bad outside 1980 in Pak as Gavaskar in England outside 78), and in India Viv was good enough(would definitely average 50+ but he struggled in 83 cause he had an eye problem which was rectified with a surgery next year) and has a sublime 4th innings century. Basically Viv had proved he could compete against reverse swing and spin and be the best ala the 1980 series where in a low scoring series and against peak Imran(and an amazing attack overal, Qadir, Qasim and Sarfaraz Nawaz) he dominated everyone and was head and shoulders the best. In comparison, the 78 series was a high scoring one, and for me Gavaskar’s reputation in Aus is dented by never dominating the best(Lillee). Also feel Viv had more bowler friendly wickets at home to contend with. Another reason I feel Viv is better is because of his peak
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I dont think Gavaskar in England is less proven than Viv in Pakistan. Most of Viv's other Pak tours have been more high scoring than Gavaskar's English ones, he also has some very notable innings in England outside 78 (101 run out in Old Trafford 74 is rated very high technically) and dominated some really good attacks in County Cricket. And re Lillee, he did well enough in tough tracks vs Thomson and Holding and overall against WI pacers for that to not be a huge problem for me.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
capt_Luffy said:
I dont think Gavaskar in England is less proven than Viv in Pakistan. Most of Viv's other Pak tours have been more high scoring than Gavaskar's English ones, he also has some very notable innings in England outside 78 (101 run out in Old Trafford 74 is rated very high technically) and dominated some really good attacks in County Cricket. And re Lillee, he did well enough in tough tracks vs Thomson and Holding and overall against WI pacers for that to not be a huge problem for me.
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Gavaskar averaged 29 on all tours except that one. Viv on his first tour to Pak only played two matches and on his last one wasn’t that bad. And he barely had any not outs on his 1980 series, otherwise he would average higher in Pakistan. I feel he did amazingly well agaisnt the best SC had to offer, in atleast one series. Agree to disagree on the Australia thing.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
Also feel Viv’s 1980 in Pak was better than any series Gavaskar had in Pak, since Viv had to face Imran in his peak period+Qadir as well, unlike Gavaskar in 78. Also Gavaskar did fairly well in 1982. Also Gavaskar faced better wickets at home than Viv. And Viv is superior in a bigger variety of conditions(pace and bounce, lateral movement compared to vs SC conditions).
 
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capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
HouHsiaoHsien said:
Gavaskar averaged 29 on all tours except that one. Viv on his first tour to Pak only played two matches and on his last one wasn’t that bad. And he barely had any not outs on his 1980 series, otherwise he would average higher in Pakistan. I feel he did amazingly well agaisnt the best SC had to offer, in atleast one series. Agree to disagree on the Australia thing.
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HouHsiaoHsien said:
Also feel Viv’s 1980 in Pak was better than any series Gavaskar had in Pak, since Viv had to face Imran in his peak period+Qadir as well, unlike Gavaskar in 78. Also Gavaskar did fairly well in 1982. Also Gavaskar faced better wickets at home than Viv. And Viv is superior in a bigger variety of conditions(pace and bounce, lateral movement compared to vs SC conditions).
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Gavaskar, like Viv in Pakistan also had a great innings in his first English tour which was 3 matches and wasn't poor in his last one. Gavaskar's 78 is also arguably better than any of Viv in England. And as Viv had tougher conditions home, he also never faced the best bowlers of his era. And while Viv did better overall in lateral movement conditions, I don't think given Gavaskar is an opener that the advantage is as big as their average difference in England.
 
N

number11

State Vice-Captain
kyear2 said:
Really?

I can quote at least 3 posts in this or the other ongoing thread with persons saying that Viv was the best batsman they've ever seen, with the accompanying arguments.
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Viv is far and away the best player I have ever seen. Some youngsters will say X or Y averages 2 more or so on, they display their ignorance and arrogance of youth. Stats ultimately reflect only part of the story - it's the context and the way a man changes a game that matters more. Viv was miles better than some names people chuck around. He was a match winner in the truest sense.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
capt_Luffy said:
Gavaskar, like Viv in Pakistan also had a great innings in his first English tour which was 3 matches and wasn't poor in his last one. Gavaskar's 78 is also arguably better than any of Viv in England. And as Viv had tougher conditions home, he also never faced the best bowlers of his era. And while Viv did better overall in lateral movement conditions, I don't think given Gavaskar is an opener that the advantage is as big as their average difference in England.
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Viv batted in the top three, dominated Willis, Botham, Snow, Underwood, and averaged 60+. He is a hundred miles beyond Gavaskar in Eng and Aus. In 76, Viv faced Underwood, Snow, Willis, and scored 829 runs in 4 matches(more than 250+) and much faster. It’s clearly better than Gavaskar 76. Gavaskar averaged 29 across 4 tours in Eng. That’s why beyond an ATG tour, he failed clearly in England.
 
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HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
Again I won’t say Viv and Gavaskar are in different leagues, or Hutton is better than Gavaskar by a mile. All are top 9 batsmen
 
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