All Time Sub Cont XI

[silentstriker]

All the people putting Kapil in.

Out of interest do you rate him as one of the top 3 or 4 sub-continent pacemen of all time?

Most of the great fast bowlers have had support, Kapil didn't. I think his average would have been around 23-24, instead of 29 if he had at least decent support.

In any case, in an ODIs he would make an all time XI (not just subcontinent). But in tests, I would probably rate him as like #4 or #5 from the subcontinent.

 

[SJS]

OKAY folks. Here is my All Time Great Pakistan List.

I first decided to remove subjectivity from the selection of the starting pool of players. so I devised some statistical criteria. here it is.

Selection Criteria for first short list:
- Should have played at least 20 test matches
- Batsmen to have a batting average of over 35, a century every ten test matches or fewer and a fifty plus score (inclusive of centuries) once every five tests or fewer.
- Bowlers to have a bowling average of under 35, a strike rate of under 75 for new ball bowlers and under 85 for spinners and finally a minimum of 2 wkts or more per test.
- Keepers to have at least 2.5 victims per test match
- For all rounders, I gave points for the six batting and bowling criteria and picked up those who had a given minimum number of points in both batting and bowling.

This gave me the following pool of players. There are some surprises here - for me too

- Openers : Saeed Anwar, Hanif Mohammad, Taufiq Umar, Shoaib Mohammad, Majid Khan, Mudassar Nazar, Mohsin Khan,
- Middle Order : Mohammad Yousuf, Inzemam, Younis Khan, Javed Miandad, Saeed Ahmed, Shahid Afridi, Zaheer Abbas, Saleem malik, Mushtaq Mohammad, Asif Iqbal. Ijaz Ahmed,
- All Rounders : Imran Khan, Mushtaq Ahmed, Intekhab Alam, Abdul Razzaq and Shahid Afridi
- Pacers : Imran Khan, Waqar Younis, Wasim Akram, Fazal Mehmood, Shoaib Akhtar, Sarfaraz Nawaz, , Aaqib Javed,
- Spinners : Danish Kaneria, Saqlain Mushtaq, Abdul Qadir, Mushtaq Ahmed, Iqbal Qasim, Tausif Ahmed,
- Keepers : Kamran Akmal, Rashid Latif, Saleem Yousuf, Wasim Bari

PS : They are listed in the order of their rank as per the statistical criteria
So much for statistics being the sole criteria for comparisons in cricket

to continue...

 

[Xuhaib]

And that proves what ? Kaneria is still your best bowler. If you cannot bring in a class bowler once your two best pacers are injured, it really shows up the lack of depth in your fast bowling ranks.

Well if you see the U-19 WC Pakistan had the best pace attack among all nations and this backs the theory that Pakistan has more naturally talented fast bowlers. The main problem is that we dont have the proper setup or structure to mould then in to a complete finished aticle and only the very lucky or most hardworking survive.

 

[SJS]

I had fixed the minimum 20 test criteria since the older cricketers played fewer tests in an entire career. I quickly realised that this criteria needed revision, particularly for modern cricketers. it makes no sense to compare a young player with 25 tests under his belt and three fourth of his career ahead of him with another who has finished his career spread over, maybe, 15 years.

So I changed to minimum 30 years for those whose careers are over and 40 tests for the current players.

This eliminated Aqib Javed (22 tests), Taufiq Umer(24) and kamran Akmal(24) and Afridi (25). This gave a core of 32 players.
6 openers, 10 middle order batsmen, 4 all rounders, 3 keepers, 6 pacers and 6 spinners (3 appear in two categories)

Now started the elimination.

Openers :
First to go out was Mudassar Nazar.
- He scored 6 of his 1o centuries against one country, India.
- Against Australia he had no 100 and against west indies not even a fifty with an average of just 18.4.
- He was not a great batsman but was very determined.
- The decision to exclude him was easy.
Mohsin Khan:
- He showed a particular dislike for really fast bowling averaging in single digits against West Indies.
- Against Hadlee in NZLand he averaged 21.7.
- Not an opener for such August company.
Shoaib Mohammad :
- He scored just above half his runs and only 4 of his 7 centuries as an opener.
- Opened five times against West indies averaging 28.
- Opened thrice against Australia averaging 16.3.
- He is better off treated as a number three.

So we have a core of three openers, Hanif, Saeed Anwar and Majid Khan

 

[Xuhaib]

I had fixed the minimum 20 test criteria since the older cricketers played fewer tests in an entire career. I quickly realised that this criteria needed revision, particularly for modern cricketers. it makes no sense to compare a young player with 25 tests under his belt and three fourth of his career ahead of him with another who has finished his career spread over, maybe, 15 years.

So I changed to minimum 30 years for those whose careers are over and 40 tests for the current players.

This eliminated Aqib Javed (22 tests), Taufiq Umer(24) and kamran Akmal(24) and Afridi (25). This gave a core of 32 players.
6 openers, 10 middle order batsmen, 4 all rounders, 3 keepers, 6 pacers and 6 spinners (3 appear in two categories)

Now started the elimination.

Openers :
First to go out was Mudassar Nazar.
- He scored 6 of his 1o centuries against one country, India.
- Against Australia he had no 100 and against west indies not even a fifty with an average of just 18.4.
- He was not a great batsman but was very determined.
- The decision to exclude him was easy.
Mohsin Khan:
- He showed a particular dislike for really fast bowling averaging in single digits against West Indies.
- Against Hadlee in NZLand he averaged 21.7.
- Not an opener for such August company.
Shoaib Mohammad :
- He scored just above half his runs and only 4 of his 7 centuries as an opener.
- Opened five times against averaging 28.
- Opened thrice against Australia averaging 16.3.
- He is better off treated as a number three.

So we have a core of three openers, Hanif, Saeed Anwar and Majid Khan

I am enjoying this though i wanted Akmal to stay.

 

[marc71178]

Most of the great fast bowlers have had support, Kapil didn't. I think his average would have been around 23-24, instead of 29 if he had at least decent support.

So it's a partly conjecture then?

In any case, in an ODIs he would make an all time XI (not just subcontinent).

Now that is a huge call...

 

[silentstriker]

So it's a partly conjecture then?

No, its all conjecture. Thats why I can understand if someone put him outside the top 10 as the best subcontinental fast bowlers of all time.

Now that is a huge call...

Hmm, I don't think so. In ODIs, he was a great bowler. I think he was probably the best bowler at the death, and his quick slugging style lended itself well to ODIs.

 

[Fusion]

OKAY folks. Here is my All Time Great Pakistan List.

SJS, thanks for doing this!! I was waiting for you to post your team along with your analysis. Love it!!!

 

[marc71178]

Hmm, I don't think so. In ODIs, he was a great bowler. I think he was probably the best bowler at the death, and his quick slugging style lended itself well to ODIs.

But how great was he? One of the all time top 5 or 6? (which he'd need to be to get in an all time team)

 

[Anil]

Hmm, I don't think so. In ODIs, he was a great bowler. I think he was probably the best bowler at the death, and his quick slugging style lended itself well to ODIs.

....he was not always very effective in the slog overs....seen so many matches where he was magnificent in the first and second spells and then got messed up in the final overs....can't explain why, but certain lower order batsmen used to just wade into him and screw up his figures.....not that he never had any tight spells at the death but best bowler at the death, he was not....

 

[Jono]

That goes to Garner surely.

 

[silentstriker]

But how great was he? One of the all time top 5 or 6? (which he'd need to be to get in an all time team)

In one days? Yes, I think so. For one, he has an economy rate of 3.71 in one dayers.

Its not even close for tests, but I would take him over Imran in one days.

 

[Anil]

I would seriously consider R.G. 'Bapu' Nadkarni for the one day side. He was easily one of the games most economical bowlers of all time, had a test century to his credit and was an absolutely brillant and world class fielder.

I am also not so sure of Inzy's place in an all time one day side. I could think of Azhar, Asif Iqbal, Saleem 'cheater' Malik as possible candidates.

bapu nadkarni is a good point, ravi shastri would be under consideration as well...and you are right about inzi, especially with respect to his fielding....as for azhar and malik, i did consider and reject them purely on non-cricketing grounds...

asif iqbal....i don't know...is he good enough to make an all-time side based on his fielding brilliance and whatever batting abilities he had?

 

[FRAZ]

-
-Middle Order : Mohammad Yousuf, Inzemam, Younis Khan, Javed Miandad, Saeed Ahmed, Shahid Afridi, Zaheer Abbas, Saleem malik, Mushtaq Mohammad, Asif Iqbal. Ijaz Ahmed,

Gotta Admitttt !!! Thanx !!!! And I guess this is one of the best choices I have seen .Although the gentleman did not play much but he sure was a sound batsman . Btw SJS which footage you remember of Saeed Ahmed ? And you sure know why he was so controversial later on eh ?

 

[SJS]

Gotta Admitttt !!! Thanx !!!! And I guess this is one of the best choices I have seen .Although the gentleman did not play much but he sure was a sound batsman . Btw SJS which footage you remember of Saeed Ahmed ? And you sure know why he was so controversial later on eh ?

Forget footage, I have seen him playing. There are some advantages of being old you know

You will be able to impress people 30-40 years from now by saying you saw Lara and Tendulkar, Murali and Warne, you know.

That will be something. It will be akin to, well almost akin to, having seen the Don! People may want your autograph for that

Thats why I tell people that instead of fighting over which is better and then forcing yourself to, most illogically, hate/dislike/denounce the other, enjoy the privilige of seeing these giants in flesh and blood and cherish them.

 

[marc71178]

In one days? Yes, I think so. For one, he has an economy rate of 3.71 in one dayers.

Yes, but then again there are a lot of bowlers with less than that - and all of them got wickets at a faster rate.

The problem with using economy rates to compare bowlers is that the game has changed beyond pretty much all recognition over the last few years.

And if you're looking for an all rounder, there's either Hadlee from Kapil's era or Pollock from the modern era who would definitely be in with a shout (Pollock especially if you're going by economy)

 

[honestbharani]

All the people putting Kapil in.

Out of interest do you rate him as one of the top 3 or 4 sub-continent pacemen of all time?

I put him in the ODI side as he brings the much needed balance to the side. would have put Imran but I honestly didn't see him play much at all. And I was strictly trying to make a team with the guys that I have watched at least for a couple of years.

 

[silentstriker]

Yes, but then again there are a lot of bowlers with less than that - and all of them got wickets at a faster rate.

The problem with using economy rates to compare bowlers is that the game has changed beyond pretty much all recognition over the last few years.

And if you're looking for an all rounder, there's either Hadlee from Kapil's era or Pollock from the modern era who would definitely be in with a shout (Pollock especially if you're going by economy)

Yea, Hadlee especially would make it. Pollock would be close.

 

[Anil]

All the people putting Kapil in.

Out of interest do you rate him as one of the top 3 or 4 sub-continent pacemen of all time?

kapil will not be in subcontinental elevens necessarily just as a bowler, he was a world class allrounder, remember? the only other bowler who would challenge him for a place from india would be kumble(even considering chandra, bedi, prasanna, venkat et al) and he would be beaten out because of kapil's additional qualities(brilliant lower-order batting, electric fielding)....the pakistani bowlers i would rate above him are khan, akram and waqar and the only lankan bowler above him for me is murali...and the teams that i chose have these bowlers in addition to kapil...

 

[Beleg]

Shoaib Akhtar is criminally underrated by a lot of you, it seems to me.