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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Kallis also gets there on merit, just as much merit. If you went best bats then of course he wouldn't make it. Neither would Imran if it's best bowlers. And again you don't need someone who can reverse it, how are you missing that point. But yes, Imran brings reverse and batting, Kallis catching and bowling. There's no difference.
For me, you do need someone who can reverse it to make it a complete attack for all eras and conditions. And reverse is part of his primary skills so you can't compare it with Kallis' secondary set.

And of course Hammond is an option, he's one of my 3 or 4 most useful / utilitarian players ever. But Kallis is the better fit.
Why do we have to trade better batting skills for being a better rest bowler?
 

kyear2

International Coach
So Mr @subshakerz as per a conversation that we were having in another thread. You suggest that an ideal attack should have a seamer, a reverse swinger and at least a 20 plus average guy at 8.

Your ideal combination is of course
Imran | Marshall | McGrath

Mine currently is

Wasim | Marshall | McGrath

But I realised that if you really want to best of all said qualities without sacrificing any bowling at all that this may be the best

Hadlee | Marshall | Steyn

Which I don't think I've ever seen anyone select.

Of course guys like Coronis goes with the best three and figure that they'll make it work

Hadlee | Marshall | McGrath

It's funny where the batting lineups for these exercises are pretty much set in stone and the bowling ones are all over the place.
 

Coronis

International Coach
And most games end in a draw?
Jeez you’re insufferable sometimes. The whole point of that was batsmen who took the most deliveries to dismiss. Go whinge about how you hate low SR’s somewhere else.

We both need to shorten these posts.
Don’t be silly, long posts are one of the signatures of the relationship between the two of you.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
So Mr @subshakerz as per a conversation that we were having in another thread. You suggest that an ideal attack should have a seamer, a reverse swinger and at least a 20 plus average guy at 8.

Your ideal combination is of course
Imran | Marshall | McGrath

Mine currently is

Wasim | Marshall | McGrath

But I realised that if you really want to best of all said qualities without sacrificing any bowling at all that this may be the best

Hadlee | Marshall | Steyn

Which I don't think I've ever seen anyone select.
Hadlee, Marshall and Steyn is fine.

However, I have expressed my reservations about the unsuitability of Steyn as a third seamer. Much less dangerous with the new ball and likely to be smashed around until the ball gets old enough. At least Imran and Wasim to an extent are capable of being tight if there isn't enough swing.

And also, like you, I have a stronger preference for McGrath over Hadlee.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Taking Steyn over Imran is like taking Sachin ahead of Sobers; on primary perfectly fine, but if and only if you think secondary doesn't matters at all (which is silly asf).
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Taking Steyn over Imran is like taking Sachin ahead of Sobers; on primary perfectly fine, but if and only if you think secondary doesn't matters at all (which is silly asf).
I agree in the sense that it is silly to ignore Imran lower order batting speciality.

But then we don't mind folks taking McGrath over Hadlee in their XIs.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Jeez you’re insufferable sometimes. The whole point of that was batsmen who took the most deliveries to dismiss. Go whinge about how you hate low SR’s somewhere else.



Don’t be silly, long posts are one of the signatures of the relationship between the two of you.
So only you're allowed to be insufferable and winge?

Think this is the place to winge about it actually.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Hadlee, Marshall and Steyn is fine.

However, I have expressed my reservations about the unsuitability of Steyn as a third seamer. Much less dangerous with the new ball and likely to be smashed around until the ball gets old enough. At least Imran and Wasim to an extent are capable of being tight if there isn't enough swing.

And also, like you, I have a stronger preference for McGrath over Hadlee.
Not sure that's a thing. He was a master of reverse and that's not to mention that the 3rd seamer gets a shot at the new ball as well.

But yeah, I'm not changing mine, and I do have a very strong preference for McGrath over Hadlee as well.

Just showing there are multiple and viable alternatives, even better ones.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Taking Steyn over Imran is like taking Sachin ahead of Sobers; on primary perfectly fine, but if and only if you think secondary doesn't matters at all (which is silly asf).
You did notice that Hadlee (and Wasim) are capable of filling that role. And if one believes that Steyn is better than Imran for his primary, then there's nothing wrong with that selection.

I'm sure you've said that you would easily select Sachin over Kallis, and Kallis has two secondary skills. Would that also be silly af?
 

kyear2

International Coach
Taking Steyn over Imran is like taking Sachin ahead of Sobers; on primary perfectly fine, but if and only if you think secondary doesn't matters at all (which is silly asf).
And just another point. If Bumrah make it to 300 wickets and makes it a 4 man GOAT discussion, I wonder if this argument would still prevail.

We probably would if there were two better quicks than both of them and picking McGrath would force Warne or Marshall to bat 8.
Is a

Marshall | Warne | McGrath | Bumrah

Tail totally unacceptable?
 

kyear2

International Coach
Myself and other posters were literally talking about players who could occupy the crease or “grinders” in fact you brought the topic up in the first place, no? Just so you could come back and push your negative agenda for the thousandth time.
A comment is pushing a negative agenda?

All I commented is the sentiment that the team would probably struggle to win games, I'm not allowed to comment?
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
You did notice that Hadlee (and Wasim) are capable of filling that role. And if one believes that Steyn is better than Imran for his primary, then there's nothing wrong with that selection.

I'm sure you've said that you would easily select Sachin over Kallis, and Kallis has two secondary skills. Would that also be silly af?
Given Sachin is much ahead of Kallis, while the difference in Imran and Steyn is marginal at best, no it won't. Now think you are going with a team with 5 bowlers, would you take Sachin over Sobers??? Surely not, because Sachin is a marginally better bat than Sobers, enough to make Sobers' 6th bowling enough to overcome. Even thinking Steyn is better than Imran in primary (most thinks that, including me), you absolutely have to think they have a massive difference to overcome a batting average difference of 30.
And just another point. If Bumrah make it to 300 wickets and makes it a 4 man GOAT discussion, I wonder if this argument would still prevail.
What do you want to point at dude?? If given a choice between my life and Bumrah's, I will save his. Doesn't means even then I have reason to take him ahead of Imran. I can't see him doing so good to end up MUCH (focus on the word) better than Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Given Sachin is much ahead of Kallis, while the difference in Imran and Steyn is marginal at best, no it won't. Now think you are going with a team with 5 bowlers, would you take Sachin over Sobers??? Surely not, because Sachin is a marginally better bat than Sobers, enough to make Sobers' 6th bowling enough to overcome. Even thinking Steyn is better than Imran in primary (most thinks that, including me), you absolutely have to think they have a massive difference to overcome a batting average difference of 30.

What do you want to point at dude?? If given a choice between my life and Bumrah's, I will save his. Doesn't means even then I have reason to take him ahead of Imran. I can't see him doing so good to end up MUCH (focus on the word) better than Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee.
1. Think you missed the point. What I'm saying is that if I have Hadlee in my team already, the need for the extra batting is minimal and if I believe Steyn is the better bowler, I'm free to go with him. That's it.

2. If Bumrah does get to the point where he is in that discussion and surpasses Imran in skill and record. You're still going with Imran for reverse swing over a better performer because he can't bat?
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Given Sachin is much ahead of Kallis, while the difference in Imran and Steyn is marginal at best, no it won't. Now think you are going with a team with 5 bowlers, would you take Sachin over Sobers??? Surely not, because Sachin is a marginally better bat than Sobers, enough to make Sobers' 6th bowling enough to overcome. Even thinking Steyn is better than Imran in primary (most thinks that, including me), you absolutely have to think they have a massive difference to overcome a batting average difference of 30.
kyear2's point is that if A is a better bowler than B, then A should be automatically included even if B bats like Bradman.

Secondary disciplines do not count (unless its Sobers, whose three styles of crap bowling will count).
 

Coronis

International Coach
kyear2's point is that if A is a better bowler than B, then A should be automatically included even if B bats like Bradman.

Secondary disciplines do not count (unless its Sobers, whose three styles of crap bowling will count).
I will say that in my XI my first thought is picking the best specialists - then I look at the team balance and see if anything needs changing. Fortunately for me it didn’t.

Gilchrist is the exception, he was chosen for his secondary skill.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I will say that in my XI my first thought is picking the best specialists - then I look at the team balance and see if anything needs changing. Fortunately for me it didn’t.

Gilchrist is the exception, he was chosen for his secondary skill.
And that is fine, my first XI probably has a significant overlap with yours, except I would have Imran instead of McGrath, and I might have Sunny and Viv in there instead of Sutcliffe and Hammond.

The point is, I don't think making those changes would significantly weaken my side compared to yours. It might just make it stronger. Batting down to XI.
 
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