The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Fuller Pilch]

In 2002 Christopher Martin-Jenkins selected England and Rest of the World XIs for The Times newspaper
His teams were as follows:

England: Hutton*, Gooch, Dexter, May, Cowdrey, Botham, Knott+, Laker, Underwood, Trueman, Statham.

Obviously rated Barrington much lower than CW

 

[kyear2]

I grew up on the Windies being bad for cricket. I missed the stage where Australia could compete with them. The media was forever moaning about how unfair the way they played was and how it was bad for the viewer. I believed all that and was happy to see bouncer limits applied, as that was the focus or all the crying. But they just went on, because really the way they controlled you wasn't with the bouncers at your head, but the steep ball into the chest. They made you play too tight.
Then they fell away remarkably quickly. Their 'factory of fast bowlers' just disappeared.
Australia then took the lead. They seemed to have a factory of bowlers that never ended. All the papers started to focus on how Australia was bad for the spectators, because we were all *****. Then our cupboard suddenly went bare. You can see where the focus will be if India manages to get into complete dominance mode. They will be bad for spectators because they game the system and throw their weight around with their too powerful board. None of is really true. Every over dominant team will be cried about for something. Then, when tables turn, people will look back and see them in a much better light
Hmmm. OK

....

 

[peterhrt]

Did he also vote for the World XI as well, can't recall if he was one of the voters.

There was a panel of 12 voters for the World XI who were invited to pick first and second teams. Eight former captains (Bacher, Ian Chappell, Greig, Intikhab, Lloyd, Duleep Mendis, Wadekar and John Wright) plus four unidentified writers/historians. Don't know whether Martin-Jenkins was one of those.

However CMJ did pick the following all-time World XI in 1999. He said: My side requires courage and impeccable technique from the opening batsmen, genius and attacking flair from three to seven in the order, a brilliant and effervescent wicket-keeper, and bowlers to cover every possible eventuality...Eight of the ten fielders are natural athletes who would catch anything above ground.

Hobbs, Gavaskar, Bradman, Lara, Sobers, Procter, Imran, Rhodes, Evans+, O'Reilly, Barnes. 12th man: Botham.

Other Test Match Special commentators picked their teams at the same time. TMS had a mainly English audience.

Jonathan Agnew: Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Lara, Viv Richards, Grace, Botham, Knott+, Warne, Lillee, Holding.

Peter Baxter: Hobbs, Gavaskar, Bradman, Viv Richards, Weekes, Sobers, Knott+, Warne, Lillee, Barnes, Spofforth.

Henry Blofeld: Hobbs, Barry Richards, Bradman*, Compton, Viv Richards, Sobers, Botham, Knott+ Warne, Lillee, Barnes.

Bill Frindall: Hobbs, Barry Richards, Bradman*, Compton, Weekes, Sobers, Miller, Evans+, Lindwall, Warne, Barnes.

Composite TMS Team: Hobbs, Gavaskar/Barry Richards, Bradman*, Compton/Lara/Weekes, Viv Richards, Sobers, Botham, Knott+, Warne, Lillee, Barnes.

 

[OverratedSanity]

@kyear2 Gavaskar seems to make a lot of these XIs. IIRC he was quite high up (I think top 10) in ESPN's legends of cricket thing too. You clearly don't rate him that highly though. What gives.

 

[peterhrt]

Obviously rated Barrington much lower than CW

That's right. Barrington was not particularly highly rated by English critics. Veteran writer AA Thomson picked his World XI during the mid-1960s and Dexter was the only English name in it.

The Pollock brothers selected a first and second World XI for the 1960s as a whole. Dexter and Cowdrey were in their 1st XI. There were four Englishmen in the 2nd team: Boycott, Barrington, Graveney and Trueman.

When WSC started there was a debate around how many of the best players had actually signed for Packer. Colin Cowdrey, Cyril Washbrook and John Edrich put together the following World XI in early 1978:

Barry Richards, Greenidge, Greg Chappell*, Viv Richards, Zaheer, Procter, Knott+, Roberts, Holding, Underwood, Chandrasekhar.

All except Chandra had signed for Packer.

 

[peterhrt]

Sorry, also seeing an article where he did a compilation XI for the 1953 to 2002 teams, but it's paywalled.

Any chance you would know what that one was?

I am not absolutely certain, but have a feeling that Hutton, Botham and Knott were the three English players in the composite team.

 

[Coronis]

Sorry, also seeing an article where he did a compilation XI for the 1953 to 2002 teams, but it's paywalled.

Any chance you would know what that one was?

See if you can go through internet archive. Sometimes works.

 

[Coronis]

That's right. Barrington was not particularly highly rated by English critics. Veteran writer AA Thomson picked his World XI during the mid-1960s and Dexter was the only English name in it.

The Pollock brothers selected a first and second World XI for the 1960s as a whole. Dexter and Cowdrey were in their 1st XI. There were four Englishmen in the 2nd team: Boycott, Barrington, Graveney and Trueman.

When WSC started there was a debate around how many of the best players had actually signed for Packer. Colin Cowdrey, Cyril Washbrook and John Edrich put together the following World XI in early 1978:

Barry Richards, Greenidge, Greg Chappell*, Viv Richards, Zaheer, Procter, Knott+, Roberts, Holding, Underwood, Chandrasekhar.

All except Chandra had signed for Packer.

Curious what were the brothers’ XI’s?

 

[peterhrt]

Curious what were the brothers’ XI’s?

Pollock brothers' World XIs for the 1960s decade. They didn't include themselves.

1st XI: Simpson, Barlow, Kanhai, Dexter, Cowdrey, Sobers, Benaud*, Waite+, Hall, Gibbs, Adcock.

2nd XI: Hunte, Boycott, Hanif*, Barrington, Graveney, Bland, Davidson, Grout+, McKenzie, Tayfield, Trueman.

 

[peterhrt]

Obviously rated Barrington much lower than CW

Another English post-war team without Barrington. This time picked by Alan Thompson of the Daily Express. Covers 1946-82.

Hutton, Boycott, May*, Compton, Graveney, Botham, Knott+, Laker, Lock, Trueman, Statham.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Another English post-war team without Barrington. This time picked by Alan Thompson of the Daily Express. Covers 1946-82.

Hutton, Boycott, May*, Compton, Graveney, Botham, Knott+, Laker, Lock, Trueman, Statham.

Honestly Lock over Underwood is worse than Graveney over Barrington.

 

[Coronis]

Pollock brothers' World XIs for the 1960s decade. They didn't include themselves.

1st XI: Simpson, Barlow, Kanhai, Dexter, Cowdrey, Sobers, Benaud*, Waite+, Hall, Gibbs, Adcock.

2nd XI: Hunte, Boycott, Hanif*, Barrington, Graveney, Bland, Davidson, Grout+, McKenzie, Tayfield, Trueman.

Seems very generous with some players lol. Like Tayfield, who played his last test in 1960 or Adcock who played his last in 62.

Surprised Bill Lawry missed out.

 

[peterhrt]

Seems very generous with some players lol. Like Tayfield, who played his last test in 1960 or Adcock who played his last in 62.

Surprised Bill Lawry missed out.

Yes Lawry is the most notable omission from a numbers point of view.

Peter Pollock was in the press box by now and may have been persuaded by his editor to include more South Africans. Off-spinners Titmus, Allen and Prasanna all took 100 wickets during the decade, as did Dick Motz. Statham, Snow and Griffith also have decent figures.

 

[peterhrt]

Honestly Lock over Underwood is worse than Graveney over Barrington.

Surrey's seven consecutive County Championship titles 1952-58 made a strong impression at the time and for a while afterwards. Yorkshire have won four on the trot, Lancashire three, with no other county more than two.

Despite frequent Test calls, Surrey basically relied on 13 players during those seven seasons. Figures below are for that period - County Championship matches only.

Appearances: Bernie Constable 179, Tom Clark 169, Eric Bedser 159, Arthur McIntyre 159, Alec Bedser 148, Lock 140, David Fletcher 138, Laker 135, Stuart Surridge 129, Peter Loader 128, Barrington 125, May 119, Micky Stewart 108.

Batting: May 7832 runs @ 49.56, Barrington 5011 @ 32.75, Fletcher 6531 @ 30.95, Constable 7536 @ 29.90, Stewart 4839 @ 29.87, Clark 7324 @ 29.53.

Bowling: Lock 817 wickets @ 12.73, Laker 628 @ 15.65, Alec Bedser 624 @ 16.32, Loader 492 @ 16.32, Eric Bedser 292 @ 19.72, Surridge 187 @ 28.11.

Catches: McIntyre 246 (+ 65 st), Lock 246, Surridge 221, Stewart 205, Barrington 139, May 116.

Captains: Surridge 1952-56, May 1957-58.

Lock was the most influential bowler and the outstanding catcher in a brilliant fielding side. He is still reckoned to be the greatest English short-leg fieldsman as well as the best-ever to his own bowling. There were some doubts about his action, particularly the quicker ball, but that applied to several bowlers of the time and didn't seem to affect his reputation too much.

Sporting pitches were the order of the day, which only enhanced May's reputation as a batsman.

 

[kyear2]

@kyear2 Gavaskar seems to make a lot of these XIs. IIRC he was quite high up (I think top 10) in ESPN's legends of cricket thing too. You clearly don't rate him that highly though. What gives.

I know you're trolling, but who said I don't rate Sunny?

I have him in my top 10 batsmen the same as everyone else.

Barry seems to have made a lot of them as well.

You clearly don't rate him that highly, what gives?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Surrey's seven consecutive County Championship titles 1952-58 made a strong impression at the time and for a while afterwards. Yorkshire have won four on the trot, no other county more than three.

Despite frequent Test calls, Surrey basically relied on 13 players during those seven seasons. Figures below are for County Championship matches only.

Appearances: Bernie Constable 179, Tom Clark 169, Eric Bedser 159, Arthur McIntyre 159, Alec Bedser 148, Lock 140, David Fletcher 138, Laker 135, Stuart Surridge 129, Peter Loader 128, Barrington 125, May 119, Micky Stewart 108.

Batting: May 7832 runs @ 49.56, Barrington 5011 @ 32.75, Fletcher 6531 @ 30.95, Constable 7536 @ 29.90, Stewart 4839 @ 29.87, Clark 7324 @ 29.53.

Bowling: Lock 817 wickets @ 12.73, Laker 628 @ 15.65, Alec Bedser 624 @ 16.32, Loader 492 @ 16.32, Eric Bedser 292 @ 19.72, Surridge 187 @ 28.11.

Catches: McIntyre 246 (+ 65 st), Lock 246, Surridge 221, Stewart 205, Barrington 139, May 116.

Captains: Surridge 1952-56, May 1957-58.

Lock was the most influential bowler and the outstanding catcher in a brilliant fielding side. He is still reckoned to be the greatest English short-leg fieldsman as well as the best-ever to his own bowling. There were some doubts about his action, particularly the quicker ball, but that applied to several bowlers of the time and didn't seem to affect his reputation too much.

Sporting pitches were the order of the day, which only enhanced May's reputation as a batsman.

I knew Barrington relatively sucked at non-Test FC but damn that's lower than I expected. @Coronis I think it explains why many didn't rate him particularly highly back then.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Barry seems to have made a lot of them as well.

You clearly don't rate him that highly, what gives?

Unlike you I don't consider who makes other people's atg xi as an important criteria for greatness. So this question is irrelevant to me.

You rate Barry Richards as greater than gavaskar (and many other modern atgs with full careers) pretty much entirely on the basis of how writers/other players rated him. But you dismiss this criteria when it's brought up for other players. Lots of other posters have already asked you this before and you just respond with waffle. It makes no sense. If you just say you personally prefer these players instead of trying to justify it with nonsensical and inconsistent metrics nobody would care.

 

[h_hurricane]

The only all time team Barry Richards should objectively make is an all time World Series cricket XI.

 

[peterhrt]

In 2010 freelance journalist Richard Sydenham assembled 100 all-time World XIs chosen by 100 cricketers from all over the world past and present. He asked selectors who were still alive to exclude players from the 19th century. Some insisted on only picking players they had seen. The book was entitled In A League Of Their Own and was reviewed by Cricket Web at the time. The following were chosen in most teams:

Sobers 71, Viv Richards 64, Warne 61, Gavaskar 58, Bradman 53, Lillee 53, Tendulkar 42, Marshall 35, Knott 34, Wasim Akram 27, Gilchrist 26, Greenidge 26, Lara 25, Hutton 21, Imran Khan 21, Hadlee 19, Botham 18, Barry Richards 17, Border 16, Hobbs 14, Lindwall 14, Miller 13, Greg Chappell 12, Javed Miandad 12, Laker 12, Lance Gibbs 11, Barnes 10, Compton 10, Evans 10, Holding 10, Graeme Pollock 10.

Among modern bowlers who appeared in fewer teams than might be expected were McGrath (8), Murali (7) and Ambrose (4).

 

[Thala_0710]

In 2010 freelance journalist Richard Sydenham assembled 100 all-time World XIs chosen by 100 cricketers from all over the world past and present. He asked selectors who were still alive to exclude players from the 19th century. Some insisted on only picking players they had seen. The book was entitled In A League Of Their Own and was reviewed by Cricket Web at the time. The following were chosen in most teams:

Sobers 71, Viv Richards 64, Warne 61, Gavaskar 58, Bradman 53, Lillee 53, Tendulkar 42, Marshall 35, Knott 34, Wasim Akram 27, Gilchrist 26, Greenidge 26, Lara 25, Hutton 21, Imran Khan 21, Hadlee 19, Botham 18, Barry Richards 17, Border 16, Hobbs 14, Lindwall 14, Miller 13, Greg Chappell 12, Javed Miandad 12, Lance Gibbs 11, Laker 11, Barnes 10, Compton 10, Evans 10, Holding 10, Graeme Pollock 10.

So this gives:

World Xi
Gavaskar
Greenidge
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Knott
Akram
Marshall
Warne
Lillee

World Xi A
Hutton
Richards
Chappell
Lara
Border
Gilchrist
Botham
Imran
Hadlee
Lindwall
Laker