Ravichandran Ashwin vs Hedley Verity

[ankitj]

He ain’t even a top 20 pacer of all time.

So Viv Richards of pace bowling?

 

[Coronis]

So Viv Richards of pace bowling?

Nah Viv’s a top 15 quality batsman. Especially considering the larger number of batsmen vs pacers per team. Top 11 middle order batsman.

 

[sayon basak]

It's same imo. Anderson is top ~20 bowler of all time, so is Ashwin.

None of them are top 20 bowler. James Anderson might not even be a top 20 pacer.

 

[subshakerz]

Hmmmm...... Is alright at home and got outperformed by Ashwin every single time they played together, is alright at England and hardly better, is better in SA but who cares as he is still **** there, and to top it all of, is mid asf in SL and Pakistan; but you will celebrate those because he has won matches (not even series, in turning tracks, where he should do well regularly). He is at best around equal in non turners and miles behind when the ball turns (you know, places you actually expect your spinners to win matches). At best comparable to Jadeja.

Did Ashwin do anything like these games? So convenient to say Lyon was outperformed when he had games that Ashwin would dream of in the same series.

Nothing of what you said disputes Lyon being better in non-spinning conditions. This shouldn't be controversial.

AUS vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 1st Test at Adelaide, December 09 - 13, 2014

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get Australia vs India 1st Test, cricket scorecard, Border-Gavaskar Trophy 2014/15 dated December 09 - 13, 2014.

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AUS vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 2nd Test at Perth, December 14 - 18, 2018

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, AUS vs IND, INDIA in AUS 2018/19 at Perth Stadium dated December 14 - 18, 2018.

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[honestbharani]

Only biased drivelling idiots would ask Ashwin to repeat feats that Lyon performed IN SPIN FRIENDLY conditions, in freakin Australia.

I guess McGrath is an alsoran too coz he has no fifers in India.

 

[subshakerz]

Ashwin and Lyon are averaging the same in the matches they have played together in Australia. Ashwin in fact has 7 more wickets.

Lyon has enjoyed the support of a functioning pace bowling trio all through from 2011 onwards. Ashwin has bowled with ****s in 2011 and 2014, and until Bumrah came through in 2018 and a couple of others improved, didn't have the same support. Not sure how anyone can say with a straight face that Lyon has been better in those matches.

@capt_Luffy has already answered their relative performances in other countries.

Lyon actually bowled Australia to victory in 2014 and 2018, games that Ashwin happened to miss. It's misleading to leave that out while presenting Lyon as a failure when India tours.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

This is where you are letting your own subjective bias dictate how you assess quality by attaching your sense of series worth it.

Nobody rates McGraths good performance in 95 in WI higher than what it was even though it was the most important away series win of his career. His series in WI in 99 and India in 2001 should be rated better even though Aus didn't win either.

Glenn McGrath’s performance in the 95 wasn’t leagues near his performance in 99 WI. In Ashwin’s case I am saying that during the most important series between India and Australia: he outperformed Lyon, and Lyon sucked which could have easily been the difference between the sides. And not only were Ashwin’s raw stats better but the quality of the wickets he took was enormously important. 2014 series doesn’t matter that much objectively cause the home side which was expected to win, won. If Lyon outperforms Ashwin in India when Australia win a series, that will be a massive point in his favour correspondingly. An away series win is always a more important series(especially in this case), so your performances will be important here.

 

[subshakerz]

Glenn McGrath’s performance in the 95 wasn’t leagues near his performance in 99 WI. In Ashwin’s case I am saying that during the most important series between India and Australia: he outperformed Lyon, and Lyon sucked which could have easily been the difference between the sides. And not only were Ashwin’s raw stats better but the quality of the wickets he took was enormously important. 2014 series doesn’t matter that much objectively cause the home side which was expected to win, won. If Lyon outperforms Ashwin in India when Australia win a series, that will be a massive point in his favour correspondingly. An away series win is always a more important series(especially in this case), so your performances will be important here.

Imran outperformed Marshall in head to head contests. It doesn't make him a better bowler.

You are making a lot of Lyon having a bad series in 2021 when Lyon actually won games in 2018 and 2014.

Sorry but throwing Ashwin's 2014 series under the carpet and glorifying 2021 is just your selectivity. Don't conflate team glory with his performance.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Imran outperformed Marshall in head to head contests. It doesn't make him a better bowler.

You are making a lot of Lyon having a bad series in 2021 when Lyon actually won games in 2018 and 2014.

Sorry but throwing Ashwin's 2014 series under the carpet and glorifying 2021 is just your selectivity. Don't conflate team glory with his performance.

It would had Marshall could be defined generously alright elsewise and Imran among GoAT at home.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ashwin didn't just out bowl Lyon, he was arguably India's best bowler ahead of bumrah, Siraj, Jadeja etc. (those three were excellent too but ashwin has a great case). A finger spinner being the best bowler in a series win in Australia of all places is an almost unheard of thing. Pure bias that this doesn't get acknowledged widely. Lyon can take all the useless downhill skiing 4th innings 5fers he wants.

 

[subshakerz]

It would had Marshall could be defined generously alright elsewise and Imran among GoAT at home.

No it's a very poor way to determine a better bowler. They are facing different lineups and may be a different career stages.

 

[subshakerz]

Ashwin didn't just out bowl Lyon, he was arguably India's best bowler ahead of bumrah, Siraj, Jadeja etc. (those three were excellent too but ashwin has a great case). A finger spinner being the best bowler in a series win in Australia of all places is an almost unheard of thing. Pure bias that this doesn't get acknowledged widely.

Was he better than Siraj?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sorry but throwing Ashwin's 2014 series under the carpet and glorifying 2021 is just your selectivity.

Being the best bowler in two tests and then saving the third test batting with an injured back should need no further glorification. It should naturally be acknowledged as a truly great series but it isn't by haters , hence it must be brought up repeatedly to beat them into submission imo.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Come on Subz, let’s bury the hatchet, unite as SC supporters, and unanimously declare Ashwin as better than Lyon

 

[subshakerz]

Being the best bowler in two tests and then saving the third test batting with an injured back should need no further glorification. It should naturally be acknowledged as a truly great series but it isn't by haters , hence it must be brought up repeatedly to beat them into submission imo.

I thought we are talking about bowling. I'll be the first to acknowledge he was awesome saving that test with the bat.

 

[subshakerz]

Come on Subz, let’s bury the hatchet, unite as SC supporters, and unanimously declare Ashwin as better than Lyon

It's honestly not a crazy opinion to think Lyon is better. In fact, I don't get the ire when I posit that. Lyon is underrated.

Just accept I have different criteria by which I judge spinners.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's honestly not a crazy opinion to think Lyon is better. In fact, I don't get the ire when I posit that. Lyon is underrated.

Just accept I have different criteria by which I judge spinners.

You having different criterias isn't the problem Subz, them being inconsistent is.

 

[subshakerz]

You having different criterias isn't the problem Subz, them being inconsistent is.

It's not inconsistent. I prefer spinners who can run through sides occasionally when needed in non-spinning conditions, and be a consistent threat in spinning conditions.

Lyon is better at the former, Ashwin at the latter, I tend to opt for those who are less condition dependent so I chose Lyon, but it's a close thing.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's not inconsistent. I prefer spinners who can run through sides occasionally when needed in non-spinning conditions, and be a consistent threat in spinning conditions.

Lyon is better at the former, Ashwin at the latter, I tend to opt for those who are less condition dependent so I chose Lyon, but it's a close thing.

You also repeatedly stated spinners winning Tests in non turning conditions is most important; Ashwin does that twice, outperforming Lyon. Not a rocket science, as those performances being better than Lyon's 6 fer in a won Test is.

 

[Coronis]

You having different criterias isn't the problem Subz, them being inconsistent is.

Quick @kyear2 now subz is being inconsistent. I know you care more about pacers than spinners, but go get him.