*Official* Pro-Wrestling Thread II

[Jono]

This is why Bryan's win at WM 30 was a mircale. Has the WWE ever been forced to do something completely against their wishes in the main event of their marquee show primarily because of fan support?

Bret over Luger 1994?

 

[Jono]

Andmark why are you so bothered about Brock being part time?

IMO you couldn't book him how he has been if he was full time without it getting stale

Man you'd like my man Solomonster's view on this. Completely agrees with you, and hates that people whine about Brock not being on TV all the time.

 

[GIMH]

Man you'd like my man Solomonster's view on this. Completely agrees with you, and hates that people whine about Brock not being on TV all the time.

Link me up then

 

[Agent TBY]

This was quite the post. Okay not everything is called right, but hey, good work.

Haha, thanks. You know, this past year will always remain a giant "what if" in my mind. I didn't mind the storylines I predicted right after WMXXX, and I honestly don't mind them now either, even with all the recent outcry over Reigns. It's just sad that we'll never know how good things could've been if things had gone according to plan.

- I think their original booking plans for Lesnar were perfect for the most part. (A Survivor Series title defense against Cesaro would've been nice, and they even planted the seeds for it the very same day I made that post, but for whatever reason they lost faith in him, and that's a shame.) Anyway, the only problem is that he's actually kinda turned into a babyface due to people loving their ass-kicking badasses too much, and the E really screwing the pooch here—I'll come back to this in a sec.

- Bryan's injury ruined a lot of things. Summerslam would've been insane if it'd been him in there, and his comeback at NOC would've been quite something too. Also, if fans had already gotten Lesnar v Bryan three times already, including an even better triple-threat than we saw at the Rumble, would they really be this unhappy with the current direction? I think not. Let's not mention the boneheaded decision that was bringing him back for the Rumble. Yeesh.

- I didn't mention Cena in that post at all, but he's probably been the single most important factor in things going down the way they have. That shouldn't come as a surprise considering he's the biggest star on the roster, but it's funny cause I don't think he was ever supposed to be a big player in all of this—he was just Plan B, the fallback when Bryan got injured, and therein lies the biggest problem. Consider this: would Lesnar be a pseudo-babyface right now if Bryan had stayed healthy and Lesnar beat the living hell out of him to take his title? What if Bryan did get injured, but the E slotted Ziggler in there as the transitional champ instead? It's not Cena's fault at all; he did an amazing job when called upon and that reliability is probably why he's the face of the company and Bryan's not, but this is what I meant earlier by the E screwing the pooch. Bryan and Cena are very different characters with very different backstories, and yet they bulldozed ahead with the initial plan without taking that into account. As a result, the whole Authority being anti-Cena thing felt bizarre. They shouldn't have been; he's basically what they want in their poster boy! You could try and rationalise it by arguing that the Authority are heels at the end of the day and that they can be hypocrites, but IMO that argument doesn't hold water. Not only that, we've ended up with Lesnar getting massive pops, and that could be a real problem against Reigns.

- Speaking of Reigns, I feel sorry for the guy. I'm pretty sure most of us are, at least grudgingly, willing to accept him as the new star, but he's been dealt a terrible hand by everyone involved—his promo writers (Vince Almighty himself, if the dirtsheets are to be believed), the booking, the hype machine, Bryan, and Cena. It wasn't that long ago that he was tearing it up as part of the Shield, and I don't think the predictability of his rise has been that much of a problem either—we all saw Bryan walking out of WM with the gold from a mile away, but we liked it because it was good. And nobody complained that Reigns was placed front and center in the Shield's feuds against the Wyatts and Evolution because that **** was ****ing awesome. The E's just been way too heavy-handed with him. I mean, in what universe is he a more believable choice for 2014 superstar of the year over Brock ****ing Lesnar? How come he gets to kick out Bryan's running knee, but Bryan can't kick out of a spear? Why did the Rock, Bryan, and Heyman have to try so desperately to put him over in promos? Just let it come naturally ffs, and please leave the vomit-inducing spiking of drinks and stupid jokes at home. Let him be '05 Batista, or hell, even '13-'14 Reigns. Surely it's not that hard?

Then again, his push was completely derailed by injury too. The fall months are when the E really starts grooming an up-and-comer for the WM main event, and sitting them out didn't do him any good at all. Still, they decided to stick to the original plan, and look where that's gotten us.

After all the criticism over the years that's been directed the E's way for not booking long-term, it's rather ironic that stubborn long-term booking's what caused the current debacle.

 

[sledger]

Srizza WAG

 

[GIMH]

Not sure if I mentioned, but I'm taking my eight year old daughter (recently got into WWE, massive Cena fan and hates everyone associated with 'Team Authority' by virtue of having watched last year's survivor series over and over again on the network) to a house show in April. Not been to one since 2010 so looking forwards to it, what are they like now post-brand split? They usually give us decent cards in the UK with the bulk of the roster being over here I think.

 

[sledger]

Haha, I'd quite like to go to another house show. The one I went to in 2008 was great. Too bad pretty much everyone I know these days thinks wrestling is crap, and I cbf to go by myself.

 

[sledger]

Pretty sure nearly everyone on the roster I saw that day has been fired or is no longer active come to think of it.

IIRC the matches were.

Carlito vs Brian Kendrick

Shelton vs Jeff Hardy vs R-Truth

Some Divas match.

Ryan Braddock vs Great Khali

HHH vs Kozlov

and Undertaker vs Big Show

 

[andmark]

Not sure if I mentioned, but I'm taking my eight year old daughter (recently got into WWE, massive Cena fan and hates everyone associated with 'Team Authority' by virtue of having watched last year's survivor series over and over again on the network) to a house show in April. Not been to one since 2010 so looking forwards to it, what are they like now post-brand split? They usually give us decent cards in the UK with the bulk of the roster being over here I think.

Cool haha. Have they given a match card or main event or anything?

 

[GIMH]

Cool haha. Have they given a match card or main event or anything?

They've started to advertise a couple for the tour on Raw but it's always a pinch of salt pre-Mania. Should basically be Mania rematches and what not though

 

[andmark]

I've been like Daniel Bryan this morning since Afghanistan won. Yes! Yes! Yes!

 

[Dan]

So I would argue that the title loses importance when it's defended on every PPV to an extent, especially when it's changing hands each time.

Yeah, for so long we've grown used to the formula:
-- Person X has the title
-- Person Y wins a #1 Contenders Match
-- Somehow it becomes personal
-- PPV match, possibly 2 or 3 if there's a belt change
-- New rival of the month picked. Rinse, repeat.

It works. With a bit of tweaking of that general formula, we've had some pretty bloody good storylines and some pretty impressive title reigns. But man, this whole thing of the belt not going along with a personal feud, but as an overarching narrative is a nice structure for a change.

You don't feud with Lesnar because he stalked your wife, kicked your dog or revealed you slept with a corpse, with the belt just going along with it. You fight Lesnar to prove you're the best in the world.

The closest thing I can think of is Punk/Cena, where it wasn't about Punk and Cena hating each other for some petty personal reason, but was focused on respect for the belt/the company etc.

It strikes me as an NWA-style territorial model. You do your mere mortal **** month-to-month fighting the territory heel because reasons, but then the Champ is in town for a month and the top guy goes into overdrive to see if he can do it.

Nah Lesnar breaking the streak has worked perfectly. And means whoever beats him (Reigns) has super credibility.

IMO of course.

My only concern with this is where they go from here. Let's assume Reigns beats Lesnar at 'Mania. He's just beaten the most dominant monster character we've ever seen. He broke the Streak and destroyed Cena -- he's clearly a level above everyone else.

Now Reigns is, at the very least, on par with that and Lesnar's probably gone from the company.

If Reigns doesn't become 'The Guy' immediately, how does he believably drop the belt? Cena shouldn't be a threat, because he beat the guy who destroyed Cena. Bryan shouldn't be a threat, because he's half Reigns' size and Reigns just beat Lesnar.

Personally, I'd go with a slow-burn heel turn after 'Mania. Reigns is never going to be as over as he needs to be, so I'd structure it like this:

Bryan congratulates Reigns on his win, asks for a title match after their Fastlane epic. Reigns resists -- "I've beaten you once, why do I have to do it again?" -- but after fans chant "YES!" for long enough he agrees ("If it's what the fans want" etc etc.). However, he makes it a Last Man Standing match because, while he pinned Bryan, this is the ultimate test of heart.

Reigns wins (clean; no foreign objects other than announce tables used), sowing seeds of discontent in the WWE Universe already.

Meanwhile, Bray Wyatt gets some serious creepy heel heat, so Reigns has a couple of month program with him to keep his face credibility leading into SummerSlam.

Two months before SummerSlam, The Rock is back. Him and Reigns have a student-mentor type relationship, but on a more level playing field. But Reigns starts gaining an ego; the success is going to his head. He starts displaying a few early-2000s Jericho moves, but in a more goofy, face-friendly manner. He's still a good guy but he's coasting. The Rock calls him on this, Reigns is offended -- "I'm better than you and you're just jealous!" -- and challenges him to a (non-title) match at SummerSlam.

Reigns wins, remaining undefeated since WM, but comes closer to losing than ever before as he continues to goof around and not take things seriously. Everyone expects Reigns to shake The Rock's hand etc, but he walks off to celebrate instead. He's left his 'mentor' behind.

Through this time, Cena's wrestled a multi-month program with Rollins, probably over some sort of respect theme. Rollins wins the blow-off at SummerSlam and earns Cena's respect (supplementing the lack of title match to main event). Cena claims Rollins is going to be the next big thing. Reigns is upset again, the ego wounded -- "I'm The Thing and I have the belt to prove it" -- Rollins hits back, and we basically get a big debate with Cena mediating. Obvs lots of ex-Shield stuff in there too. Both Rollins and Reigns are basically tweeners by this point -- Rollins slightly heelier, Reigns still mostly a face-with-jealousy-issues. Next PPV is a triple threat -- Rollins has the best of Reigns, Cena breaks it up to keep his title hopes alive, Reigns eventually pins Cena to retain. Cena gracefully bows out of the title scene realising he's screwed over the douchey-but-increasingly-likeable Rollins because of his own ambition -- it's not his fight.

October is Reigns vs. Rollins, where Reigns retains with some underhanded moves -- but far less underhanded than the methods Rollins was using. Reigns defends himself -- "Rollins did X; I did what I had to do", but Rollins taunts him -- "You know you can't beat me fairly". November we have a Survivor Series teams match. Rollins pins Reigns to win it (the first fall Reigns has conceded in 6 months). Reigns is stunned. He demands another (non-stipulation) title match with Rollins at TLC. Reigns loses clean, but beats the **** out of Rollins after the bell to send the PPV off air with a double-turn.

He disappears over the New Year, while Rollins is still a bit of a dick, but is a good-guy dick. Rollins defends the title on Raw once, then gets to the Royal Rumble. He defends against Cesaro (or someone similar), and is well on his way to retaining when the referee gets knocked out. Reigns makes his return and beats the living **** out of Rollins, drags Cesaro on top of him, and the referee counts three.

Earlier, Daniel Bryan won the Rumble.

Now you get a personalised Reigns/Rollins feud through to 'Mania, and a reversed WM title match dynamic where the challenger is established and the up-and-comer trying to prove himself has the belt already (made all the more interesting with Bryan's angle that he "never lost the belt in the first place". Cesaro/Bryan would be great IMO, since Bryan sells and the match would be an absolute classic. Plus, whichever way you go with the ending, you can put them both over because they're friends and whatnot

Make it happen, WWE!

 

[Dan]

And yes, I was that bored.

 

[Jono]

Just randomly remembered the empty arena match between Foley and Rock. So good.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah, for so long we've grown used to the formula:
-- Person X has the title
-- Person Y wins a #1 Contenders Match
-- Somehow it becomes personal
-- PPV match, possibly 2 or 3 if there's a belt change
-- New rival of the month picked. Rinse, repeat.

It works. With a bit of tweaking of that general formula, we've had some pretty bloody good storylines and some pretty impressive title reigns. But man, this whole thing of the belt not going along with a personal feud, but as an overarching narrative is a nice structure for a change.

You don't feud with Lesnar because he stalked your wife, kicked your dog or revealed you slept with a corpse, with the belt just going along with it. You fight Lesnar to prove you're the best in the world.

The closest thing I can think of is Punk/Cena, where it wasn't about Punk and Cena hating each other for some petty personal reason, but was focused on respect for the belt/the company etc.

It strikes me as an NWA-style territorial model. You do your mere mortal **** month-to-month fighting the territory heel because reasons, but then the Champ is in town for a month and the top guy goes into overdrive to see if he can do it.



My only concern with this is where they go from here. Let's assume Reigns beats Lesnar at 'Mania. He's just beaten the most dominant monster character we've ever seen. He broke the Streak and destroyed Cena -- he's clearly a level above everyone else.

Now Reigns is, at the very least, on par with that and Lesnar's probably gone from the company.

If Reigns doesn't become 'The Guy' immediately, how does he believably drop the belt? Cena shouldn't be a threat, because he beat the guy who destroyed Cena. Bryan shouldn't be a threat, because he's half Reigns' size and Reigns just beat Lesnar.

Personally, I'd go with a slow-burn heel turn after 'Mania. Reigns is never going to be as over as he needs to be, so I'd structure it like this:


Make it happen, WWE!

Heh... good read. But what about Rollins' MITB briefcase. That's the most exciting thing in the WWE right now... not knowing when he'll cash it in.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I was watched a few old attitude era raws over the week, and while they're obviously not great all through and have their rubbish segments just like modern WWE, the thing that keeps sticking out to me is how they nail their main event promo segments and how brilliantly they got you hyped up for a big PPV match by cutting kickass end-of-raw promos. That's the only really big thing WWE needs to fix imo, because the in-ring action is better. It's just a shame that with the heavy scripting the main event guys today don't really get me hyped up as much as I should be, somehow.

For example, I think Cena is brilliant on the mic when he's serious and lets his intensity show... but he's forced to do lame comedy which falls flat on its face and it ruins it. Hope HHH fixes this a bit after Vince goes. Think he will too... guys like Zayn in NXT come off as very natural on the mic because the leash isn't as tight.

 

[GIMH]

Promos should defo be less scripted

Dan - post more in this thread

 

[GIMH]

What a disappointing edition of NXT this week

 

[OverratedSanity]

I'm watching Raw and Heyman basically called Reigns the greatest in history....I just......what. Was it supposed to be said in a mocking tone, because it sure as hell didn't sound like it. I like Reigns but sheesh, if this is how they're going to portray him with everyone fawning over him, I'm calling BS. If it's a sign of Heyman betraying Lesnar for Reigns at WM, then fine, but otherwise this felt completely absurd.

 

[andmark]

It's hard to dislike Reigns, but yeah things like that are why he's going to get the Cena treatment for his whole career.