***Official*** New Zealand in Bangladesh

[S.P. Fleming]

I thought I would just give a couple of tips for the 08/09 summer

Jamie How maiden test century vs Aus
Aaron Redmond dropped after Bang or Aus series
Brendon McCullam to have the cricketing world at his feet as he hits the fastest test 50 and the first ODI 200
Jacob Oram to miss most of season with injury
Comfortable wins over WI despite Chanderpauls efforts
understrength India team to tour and beat us in tests but lose in ODI's
show promise vs Aus but then give up dominant positions to eventually lose
new ODI uniform to cop flack from all corners and eventually replaced
test debut for Tim McIntosh (new opener)
calls for Ponting to be sacked as ODI captain after NZ cause a boilover in C-H
Tim Southee shows more promise and maintains both test and ODI spots
Chris Martin and Scott Styris to announce retirements

 

[Polo23]

A few of those predictions are incredibly farfetchd.

And no way will Tim McIntosh get a test cap.

 

[Somerset]

I thought I would just give a couple of tips for the 08/09 summer

Jamie How maiden test century vs Aus

Possible, more hopeful than anything though.

Aaron Redmond dropped after Bang or Aus series

Again possible, though who'd replace him?

Brendon McCullam to have the cricketing world at his feet as he hits the fastest test 50 and the first ODI 200

I'm not quite so sure.

Jacob Oram to miss most of season with injury

Wouldn't bet against it - I'm blaming you if it happens though.

Comfortable wins over WI despite Chanderpauls efforts

Fingers crossed.

understrength India team to tour and beat us in tests but lose in ODI's

Given India's younger looking ODI squad we'll probably go into the ODIs as favourites but I'd also be confident in a good result in the test series from a NZ perspective.

show promise vs Aus but then give up dominant positions to eventually lose

Don't we always?

new ODI uniform to cop flack from all corners and eventually replaced

I doubt it'll be replaced, I'm sure Canterbury have some three year multi $$$ deal.

test debut for Tim McIntosh (new opener)

calls for Ponting to be sacked as ODI captain after NZ cause a boilover in C-H

I don't think so.

Tim Southee shows more promise and maintains both test and ODI spots

With Mills, Martin, and a returning Franklin, as well as O'Brien, I wouldn't bet on him cementing a test spot just yet, but you never know.

Chris Martin and Scott Styris to announce retirements

Styris, possibly yes. Can't see Martin calling it a day yet.

 

[Somerset]

Fulton's problem was his technique went AWOL.

He kept getting bowled through the gate, mostly because his backlift was coming down from gully.

If he has sorted that out then he definitely would be at home in the NZ top order. I wouldnt mind seeing him have a few prolific games for Canterbury before he was recalled though.

Has anyone (and mainly hoping for an answer from Australians with some TV coverage) seen any of the New Zealand A side's efforts in the tournament with Australia A and India A? From the scorecards it seemed Fulton was definitely returning to form, and was dominant with the bat - what was his technique like? Did he seem to have remodelled his stance somewhat?

 

[S.P. Fleming]

I live in Australia and I dont think theres been any tv coverage!

 

[Polo23]

With Mills, Martin, and a returning Franklin, as well as O'Brien, I wouldn't bet on him cementing a test spot just yet, but you never know.

Why? He is the most talented bowler we have and from all reports is going to get a good run in the test and ODI team.

He is definitely higher in the pecking order than O'Brien.

 

[Polo23]

Has anyone (and mainly hoping for an answer from Australians with some TV coverage) seen any of the New Zealand A side's efforts in the tournament with Australia A and India A? From the scorecards it seemed Fulton was definitely returning to form, and was dominant with the bat - what was his technique like? Did he seem to have remodelled his stance somewhat?

Why would the Aussies get coverage? The tournament was held in India.

 

[Somerset]

Why? He is the most talented bowler we have and from all reports is going to get a good run in the test and ODI team.

He is definitely higher in the pecking order than O'Brien.

I'm not so sure for the test match XI. O'Brien definitely produced better results than Southee in the test matches in England (although judging his one test is probably being a harsh critic). ODIs I've no doubt hes in the best side the selectors will opt for.

Why would the Aussies get coverage? The tournament was held in India.

I'll rephrase the question to any Australians or Indians who saw the tournament then.

 

[Polo23]

I'm not so sure for the test match XI. O'Brien definitely produced better results than Southee in the test matches in England (although judging his one test is probably being a harsh critic). ODIs I've no doubt hes in the best side the selectors will opt for.

Southee was incredibly unlucky. Yep, he had one bad test match (to add a little perspective, Martin had 3 bad test matches) but then he became very sick and couldnt play so O'Brien replaced him. O'Brien was then our best performing quick bowler in the second test so had to play in the 3rd.

I think after Southee's ODI exploits he will (rightly) be straight back into the test team, he will only get better and there is no better chance to get some confidence under his belt before Australia than to play Bangladesh.

 

[NZTailender]

I think after Southee's ODI exploits he will (rightly) be straight back into the test team, he will only get better and there is no better chance to get some confidence under his belt before Australia than to play Bangladesh.

Disagree with this. I don't think Southee should be straight back in unless injury befells the 3 seamers of our previous test. He shouldn't be first name down because of his ODI performances, as they're too different forms of the game (obv). He'd be best served coming back in the WI series in preparation for India.

And there is far better chances to get confidence under ones belt before playing Australia. Doing well against Bangladesh means you've managed to get some wickets of the last placed team in test cricket, who are leagues inferior to the talent and class of the world number one team. If you were to bowl a simple tactic that would get a Bangladeshi out, but not an Australian, then you aren't prepared.

 

[Polo23]

Disagree with this. I don't think Southee should be straight back in unless injury befells the 3 seamers of our previous test. He shouldn't be first name down because of his ODI performances, as they're too different forms of the game (obv). He'd be best served coming back in the WI series in preparation for India.

And there is far better chances to get confidence under ones belt before playing Australia. Doing well against Bangladesh means you've managed to get some wickets of the last placed team in test cricket, who are leagues inferior to the talent and class of the world number one team. If you were to bowl a simple tactic that would get a Bangladeshi out, but not an Australian, then you aren't prepared.

I never said it would prepare the team to take on Australia, I said it was a good chance to get some confidence. Incase you havn't realised, good performances help confidence, and in turn confidence helps built good performances.

Why should Chris Martin automatically be selected ahead of Southee? Martin averaged 34.90 at home against England, then a terrible 58.75 against England in England.

Southee took a brilliant 5fa on debut against England, then had one poor test against them in England, got food poisoning and missed the last two tests. Why should he be dropped from the first XI just because he had one poor test, then fell ill? Martin has had two poor series, yet everyone seems keen to retain him for the Australian series.

 

[NZTailender]

I never said it would prepare the team to take on Australia, I said it was a good chance to get some confidence. Incase you havn't realised, good performances help confidence, and in turn confidence helps built good performances.

Why should Chris Martin automatically be selected ahead of Southee? Martin averaged 34.90 at home against England, then a terrible 58.75 against England in England.

Southee took a brilliant 5fa on debut against England, then had one poor test against them in England, got food poisoning and missed the last two tests. Why should he be dropped from the first XI just because he had one poor test, then fell ill? Martin has had two poor series, yet everyone seems keen to retain him for the Australian series.

Confidence does help build good performances, but so does knowledge and practice. Knowing how to bowl to a higher calibre of batsman combined with confidence will help much much more than just confidence and running in, hoping for wickets. Not saying that's what Southee will have no clue, I just don't think he should play in the Australian test series (ODI series, yes).

As far as Martin goes, he's been solid, and he did have a poor time in England.
He has a lot of experience though, and I think we'll need that versus Australia. I'd advocate his dropping if he doesn't perform there, though.

 

[Polo23]

Confidence does help build good performances, but so does knowledge and practice. Knowing how to bowl to a higher calibre of batsman combined with confidence will help much much more than just confidence and running in, hoping for wickets. Not saying that's what Southee will have no clue, I just don't think he should play in the Australian test series (ODI series, yes).

As far as Martin goes, he's been solid, and he did have a poor time in England.
He has a lot of experience though, and I think we'll need that versus Australia. I'd advocate his dropping if he doesn't perform there, though.

How do you expect Southee to learn how to bowl at a higher calibre of batsman if he isnt playing against high calibre batsmen? Your argument contradicts itself.

Obviously it would be better preperation if we were player a higher ranked side, but unlike India, New Zealand has to adhere to the Future Tours Program. Bangladesh is who we are playing, and Southee, or anyone else cant change that.

How has he been solid? Averages of over 30 (and well over 50 in England) in his last 3 series against proper opposition (Bangladesh excluded) is not, in my opinion, solid. Experience doesnt replace skill, with Southee has bucketloads.

An attack of O'Brien, Mills and Martin will be absolutely toothless against Australia. I said before, New Zealand doesnt need two workhorse bowlers (O'Brien and Martin), we need atleast one wicket taker..which is what Southee is.

 

[Athlai]

Because when Martin plays he plays well and unlike Southee can bowl more than 5 overs a go.

 

[Polo23]

Because when Martin plays he plays well and unlike Southee can bowl more than 5 overs a go.

You have your head in the sand (or have just completely ignored the stats I listed).

Lets do a bit of analysis on Martin shall we?

He averages a healthy 102.12 with the ball against Australia, in 6 matches. With an economy of over 4.

The only teams (excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe) he averages under 30 against is South Africa and Sri Lanka. And the 4 tests he played against Sri Lanka were all at home (where his average is decent, just under 30).

His last two series against England he has averaged over 30 at home, and over 50 away.

So tell me, when has he played well recently?

Southee has played 2 test matches, one of which he took a 5fa on debut and looked like absolute gold, and one in his debut overseas at Lord's, where he looked overwhelmed by the whole occassion.

I don't see how anyone can make a case to leave out our most promising bowler (and probably the worlds most promising 19yo cricketer), and include a guy who averages over 100 with the ball against Australia, in 6 test matches.

Also, I would rather someone bowling a maximum of 5 overs of quality swing bowling, compared to someone bowling 10 overs of absolute rubbish.

 

[Athlai]

The balance of the team needs a bowler who can bowl 10 overs of line and length, if all you have to offer is 5 overs of swing and then you need a few hours rest your not ready yet. And yes the stats don't tell all, Martin was by no means fantastic but he still deserved to be there and until Franklin gets back dropping him for Southee is unthinkable. We need a pack leader who has the know how in Test match cricket.

 

[NZTailender]

How do you expect Southee to learn how to bowl at a higher calibre of batsman if he isnt playing against high calibre batsmen? Your argument contradicts itself.

No it doesn't, because you can play a higher calibre without starting at the very top. I didn't think Southee should've played his debut when he did in the first place anyway.

Obviously it would be better preperation if we were player a higher ranked side, but unlike India, New Zealand has to adhere to the Future Tours Program. Bangladesh is who we are playing, and Southee, or anyone else cant change that.

Indeed. There isn't too much advantage to playing Bangladesh outside stat boosting. It's not like they're the best in the world at playing quick, swing and seam bowlers.

How has he been solid? Averages of over 30 (and well over 50 in England) in his last 3 series against proper opposition (Bangladesh excluded) is not, in my opinion, solid. Experience doesnt replace skill, with Southee has bucketloads.

You need to have experience to make the most of your skill though. Perhaps if Southee didn't get sick and had played all the tests in England I'd be more confident of him being able to do well in Australia. Martin has been solid in that he has bowled well even if he hasn't taken wickets.

An attack of O'Brien, Mills and Martin will be absolutely toothless against Australia. I said before, New Zealand doesnt need two workhorse bowlers (O'Brien and Martin), we need atleast one wicket taker..which is what Southee is.

Mills is a wicket taker, as is Vettori. If you replace Martin or O'Brien with Southee it won't be much of an improvement. Grantted, Southee could do extremely well, but realistically speaking there's a bigger chance that he could concede over 100 for no wickets taken.
You have to remember, once a batsman is set, you need to figure a way to get him out.
Plus, Australia is more conducive to seam than it is to seam, especially on the pitches where we'll be playing them - Brisbane which is usually in the batsmans favour, and Adelaide which favours spin slightly.

You have your head in the sand (or have just completely ignored the stats I listed).

Lets do a bit of analysis on Martin shall we?

He averages a healthy 102.12 with the ball against Australia, in 6 matches. With an economy of over 4.

Averages of our main bowlers versus Australia in Australia (and against Australia overall) since Hadlee:
Vettori: 40.06 (34)
Cairns: 39.03 (41.94)
Morrison: 61.40 (34.83)
Martin: 70 (102.12)
Doull: 46.45 (54.41)
Bond: 96.33 (96.33)
Franklin: No wickets in Australia (44.58)
Tuffey: No wickets
Oram: No wickets
O'Connor: 44.14 (29.61)
Mills: 99

The only teams (excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe) he averages under 30 against is South Africa and Sri Lanka. And the 4 tests he played against Sri Lanka were all at home (where his average is decent, just under 30).

His last two series against England he has averaged over 30 at home, and over 50 away.

So tell me, when has he played well recently?

When has Southee played well recently? I mean, very recently? It's not like they're both fresh off the plane from England and in recent cricketing form.

Southee has played 2 test matches, one of which he took a 5fa on debut and looked like absolute gold, and one in his debut overseas at Lord's, where he looked overwhelmed by the whole occassion.

I don't see how anyone can make a case to leave out our most promising bowler (and probably the worlds most promising 19yo cricketer), and include a guy who averages over 100 with the ball against Australia, in 6 test matches.

Also, I would rather someone bowling a maximum of 5 overs of quality swing bowling, compared to someone bowling 10 overs of absolute rubbish.

Southee is going to look absolute gold at times and then overwhelemed the next, as that what generally happens to 19/20 year olds in their first few tests.

I'm not sure why we're even talking about replacing Martin when if anyone should go it should be O'Brien imo.

And Southee isn't guaranteed to send down 5 quality overs of swing, though. For that to happen the ball has to be swinging, and he has to control it.

 

[Polo23]

No it doesn't, because you can play a higher calibre without starting at the very top. I didn't think Southee should've played his debut when he did in the first place anyway.

Yes it does. How do you expect him to bowl to the best batsmen in the world, if he isnt playing against the best batsmen in the world? Well Southee completely proved you wrong then didnt he?

You need to have experience to make the most of your skill though. Perhaps if Southee didn't get sick and had played all the tests in England I'd be more confident of him being able to do well in Australia. Martin has been solid in that he has bowled well even if he hasn't taken wickets.

Experience helps, of course. But that doesnt mean a non-experienced player cannot perform, especially one with the talent of Southee. I agree that Martin bowled well in New Zealand, but he was absolutely rubbish in England.

Mills is a wicket taker, as is Vettori. If you replace Martin or O'Brien with Southee it won't be much of an improvement. Grantted, Southee could do extremely well, but realistically speaking there's a bigger chance that he could concede over 100 for no wickets taken.
You have to remember, once a batsman is set, you need to figure a way to get him out.
Plus, Australia is more conducive to seam than it is to seam, especially on the pitches where we'll be playing them - Brisbane which is usually in the batsmans favour, and Adelaide which favours spin slightly.

Vettori isn't a wicket taker. Warne was a wicket taker. Vettori is fantastic, but no way is he a wicket taker, not in test match cricket. Why is there a bigger chance he could concede over 100 for no wickets? He isn't the one averaging over 100 with the ball against Australia. What you are basing that statement on I have no idea.

Averages of our main bowlers versus Australia in Australia (and against Australia overall) since Hadlee:
Vettori: 40.06 (34)
Cairns: 39.03 (41.94)
Morrison: 61.40 (34.83)
Martin: 70 (102.12)
Doull: 46.45 (54.41)
Bond: 96.33 (96.33)
Franklin: No wickets in Australia (44.58)
Tuffey: No wickets
Oram: No wickets
O'Connor: 44.14 (29.61)
Mills: 99

The average for Bond is over 2 games, on the flattest surfaces ever played (I think we had 4 centurians in that game in Perth). Also Warne and McGrath averaged similarly for that tour also. The point I was making is that Martin averages over 100 against Australia over 6 matches...that is A LOT of bowling. To still average 100 after 6 matches is diabolical.

When has Southee played well recently? I mean, very recently? It's not like they're both fresh off the plane from England and in recent cricketing form.

The 5fa against England on debut. The whole ODI series against England. I am sure you will reply with "Yeah, but it's ODI cricket". The fact remains that Southee was bowling brilliantly throughout that series.

Southee is going to look absolute gold at times and then overwhelemed the next, as that what generally happens to 19/20 year olds in their first few tests.

I disagree. It is completely understandable for ANYONE to be overwhelmed in their first test at Lord's, especially when it is their debut test away from home. I think from here on out he should be absolutely fine.

I'm not sure why we're even talking about replacing Martin when if anyone should go it should be O'Brien imo.

I agree. I was using Martin as an example why Southee should be picked. I think the lineup should be Martin, Mills, Southee.

And Southee isn't guaranteed to send down 5 quality overs of swing, though. For that to happen the ball has to be swinging, and he has to control it.

His control was fantastic in his first test, and the whole ODI series against England. Of course he isnt guaranteed to send down 5 quality overs, but i'd back him over Martin against Australia.

 

[Polo23]

The balance of the team needs a bowler who can bowl 10 overs of line and length, if all you have to offer is 5 overs of swing and then you need a few hours rest your not ready yet. And yes the stats don't tell all, Martin was by no means fantastic but he still deserved to be there and until Franklin gets back dropping him for Southee is unthinkable. We need a pack leader who has the know how in Test match cricket.

I agree. But the team sure as hell doesnt need two bowlers who can bowl 10 overs of line and length. So either Martin, or O'Brien has to go in favour of Southee.

Why would Southee only be able to bowl 5 overs, then need a few hours rest? If this was the case he would never get through his full quota in a OD game.

The stats in England do tell all. He was rubbish that entire series. I would suggest currently he is skating on thin ice, especially considering his past performances against Australia.

 

[Athlai]

Na Martin was unlucky at OT IMO, looked dangerous for no reward. I remember a lot of edges dropping short of slips and keeper, it was frustrating. And if we have to have a line and length guy Martin > O'Brien in every world aside from one where Martin is injured.

I reckon O'Brien's okay, and really gets a bad rep here, but he's done well. Martin is our go to guy though.