***Official*** New Zealand in Bangladesh

[Polo23]

I find it hard to believe that from two tests you think Southee is as good as you think he is.

He was great when he took that 5fa, then very very ordinary in the second innings and in the Lords test. Oh but he was overwhelmed, so that doesn't matter. So yeah, he's basically only played 1 test effectively, where he took a 5fa. Therefore he should be picked over everyone else.


This is just going round in circles. Crazy pills, etc.

Where have I said how good I think he is? I've said i'd back him to do better against Australia than Martin, and you keep arguing that someone who averages over 100 against Australia is somehow now going to be fantastic, even though his career stats havn't improved at all since he last played them.

I'm glad the NZ selectors don't share your opinion.

 

[Polo23]

Because we should always go by the statistics from a few years ago and completely ignore the fact that both Martin and O'Brien have bowled better recently than they ever have in their whole careers?

Vettori averages over 40 in Australia, let's get rid of him as well.

For the 3rd time, Martin hasn't bowled any better recently than he has done in the past. You keep saying this, and it simply IS NOT true.

Another poor comparison, firstly one is a seamer who bowls with the new ball, and secondly, how is an average of 40 anywhere near as bad as an average of 100?

 

[NZTailender]

Age aside any reason why? Southee from what I've seen of him (England tour and U19 World Cup) has a big game mentality and looks like a player who can step up to the plate. O'Brien did a serviceable job against England in conditions which he enjoys but last time he faced Aus he was smashed and when confronted with flat wickets in South Africa he was smashed to all parts.

Sigh. O'Brien has been bowling much better than he did in SA, and than when he bowled against Australia. O'Brien has years and years of domestic experience and a few A tours.

So you basically have a choice between:

A bowler who has played nearly 60 FC matches, averages 24 in first class and 34 in test cricket over 8 test matches over a few years.
But the last time he played Australia he got annihilated, and has a fairly ordinary record and reputation in general.

or

A 19 year old with loads of talent, who has played 17 first class matches and 2 tests, 1 of which he took a 5fa on debut, didn't take any wickets in his next 2 test innings before missing out due to illness. But remember, he's played in an U-19 world cup recently.

 

[Polo23]

Yeah, and every time I would go with the guy who is less likely to be rubbish - Southee.

 

[NZTailender]

Where have I said how good I think he is? I've said i'd back him to do better against Australia than Martin, and you keep arguing that someone who averages over 100 against Australia is somehow now going to be fantastic, even though his career stats havn't improved at all since he last played them.

I'm glad the NZ selectors don't share your opinion.

I guess we're putting words into each others mouths because I'm not saying Martin is going to be fantastic against Australia. I'm saying it's in the best interests of NZ cricket and Tim Southee that he doesn't play Australia just yet.

For the 3rd time, Martin hasn't bowled any better recently than he has done in the past. You keep saying this, and it simply IS NOT true.

Another poor comparison, firstly one is a seamer who bowls with the new ball, and secondly, how is an average of 40 anywhere near as bad as an average of 100?

Oh are you blind? It was plainly clear from watching him since the start of our summer last year that he's been bowling much better. Actually it started before that. And there are a few here who think the same way.

And you keep on going on about averages. How is an average of 40 as near as bad as an average of 100? It isn't. But both are unacceptable at test level.

 

[NZTailender]

Yeah, and every time I would go with the guy who is less likely to be rubbish - Southee.

But what are you basing that on? A 5fa and his talent?


A choice between a seasoned pro over 30 or a green 19 year old. Southee isn't the complete deal yet, geeze. If he was there'd be no question. As it is, I don't think he's ready.

 

[TT Boy]

Sigh. O'Brien has been bowling much better than he did in SA, and than when he bowled against Australia. O'Brien has years and years of domestic experience and a few A tours.

So you basically have a choice between:

A bowler who has played nearly 60 FC matches, averages 24 in first class and 34 in test cricket over 8 test matches over a few years.
But the last time he played Australia he got annihilated, and has a fairly ordinary record and reputation in general.

or

A 19 year old with loads of talent, who has played 17 first class matches and 2 tests, 1 of which he took a 5fa on debut, didn't take any wickets in his next 2 test innings before missing out due to illness. But remember, he's played in an U-19 world cup recently.

I'm not sure he has. He did well in conditions which suited his type of bowling. There is no evidence to suggest on flat surfaces he will do better than he did in Australia/South Africa last time.

I'm not sure why you are bagging the U19 World Cup as well. Some Indian kid who played in just smashed a century against Australia and Tim Southee was voted the best cricketer in that tournament. The kid has a bright future and New Zealand are not good enough to let such talent stagnate whilst nothing cricketers get gigs and free wickets against Bangladesh. I see O'Brien, Martin whoever doing well here only then to run into the Aussies get owned big time and poor Southee then has to come in on a hiding for nothing.

 

[Polo23]

But what are you basing that on? A 5fa and his talent?


A choice between a seasoned pro over 30 or a green 19 year old. Southee isn't the complete deal yet, geeze. If he was there'd be no question. As it is, I don't think he's ready.

Yeah, I know what you think.

I'm basing it on what I have seen. I have seen a guy far more mature than what his age suggests, able to bowl accurate and get nice swing at a good pace.

I am willing to bank on his potential also. His potential is huge, and I think he will realise that potential sooner rather than later.

 

[NZTailender]

I'm not sure he has. He did well in conditions which suited his type of bowling. There is no evidence to suggest on flat surfaces he will do better than he did in Australia/South Africa last time.

I'm not sure why you are bagging the U19 World Cup as well. Some Indian kid who played in just smashed a century against Australia and Tim Southee was voted the best cricketer in that tournament. The kid has a bright future and New Zealand are not good enough to let such talent stagnate whilst nothing cricketers get gigs and free wickets against Bangladesh. I see O'Brien, Martin whoever doing well here only then to run into the Aussies get owned big time and poor Southee then has to come in on a hiding for nothing.

There's not much evidence to say Southee will do any better other than the raw talent he has. We also need to remember O'Brien and Martin are incumbents and don't really deserve to be dropped. O'Brien especially, who has been brought in and out of the side so many time, bowled really well in his last test and doesn't deserved to be dropped. Martin has been bowling consistently okay for us over the past few years while the likes of Bond, Frabklin, Gillespie, Mason and Mills have been in and out due to injury or form.

I'm not bagging the U-19 world cup, but you can't exactly point to it as a being proper preparation for a test series. IMO Southee should've been on the NZ A tour that's going on at the moment. It would've been ideal, and put my mind at rest in regards to whether or not he should play Australia.

And Martin and O'Brien could quite possibly get owned by Australia. Southee could as well. But in Southee's case it could effect his development, whereas Martin and O'Brien are into their 30's and are unlikely to be affected as much as a young seamer just starting out. I may be underestimating Southee here but it is a possibility.

 

[NZTailender]

Yeah, I know what you think.

I'm basing it on what I have seen. I have seen a guy far more mature than what his age suggests, able to bowl accurate and get nice swing at a good pace.

I am willing to bank on his potential also. His potential is huge, and I think he will realise that potential sooner rather than later.

Yeah, I've seen what he's been able to do. I've seen plenty of bowlers able to bowl accurate and get nice swing at a good paste. I've also seen them pasted to all parts of a ground by excellent batsmen. Bowlers who are better than Martin and O'Brien.

I accept that you think Southee is ready to face Australia, in your opinion.

In mine he's just not quite there yet.

 

[TT Boy]

And Martin and O'Brien could quite possibly get owned by Australia. Southee could as well. But in Southee's case it could effect his development, whereas Martin and O'Brien are into their 30's and are unlikely to be affected as much as a young seamer just starting out. I may be underestimating Southee here but it is a possibility.

According to Dipak Patel, Southee is the sort of cricketer who thrives on a challenge and is unlike most young cricketers for he has huge amounts of self confidence. So I don't think a possible hiding from the Australians will destroy him.

 

[NZTailender]

According to Dipak Patel, Southee is the sort of cricketer who thrives on a challenge and is unlike most young cricketers for he has huge amounts of self confidence. So I don't think a possible hiding from the Australians will destroy him.

Indeed. It could make him stronger, hungrier. Would definitely like to be proven wrong TBH but my gut feeling is to wait.

 

[Smudge]

Honestly mate, just give Southee more time he still has 14 years in him.

I didn't even realise he was still at boarding school...

 

[Polo23]

Indeed. It could make him stronger, hungrier. Would definitely like to be proven wrong TBH but my gut feeling is to wait.

That's exactly what happened to Martin Crowe when he failed in his first test series against Australia at the age of 20 (or was it 19?). He came back the next year better prepared, far more hungry, and far more confident and we all know what happened from that point on.

I think chucking Southee into the deep end and telling him to swim will help his development, rather than hinder it. If Southee was a guy like Jesse Ryder that is when I would be worried.

 

[NZTailender]

That's exactly what happened to Martin Crowe when he failed in his first test series against Australia at the age of 20 (or was it 19?). He came back the next year better prepared, far more hungry, and far more confident and we all know what happened from that point on.

I think chucking Southee into the deep end and telling him to swim will help his development, rather than hinder it. If Southee was a guy like Jesse Ryder that is when I would be worried.

Yeah, Southee does seem to be more mentally tough than someone like Ryder, and would probably feed of the challenge.

Have been thinking about this more and if Southee is to play Australia, then he should play in both tests against Bangladesh. If the selectors leave him out of both tests, then he shouldn't play Australia.

 

[Polo23]

Finally something we can agree on.

The selectors should use the XI they are planning to use against Australia in both tests against Bangladesh, and i'm pretty sure they will do exactly that.

I'm not entirely sure what that lineup will be, but i'd suggest if Southee has a good One Day series (which is likely) he will get the nod for the tests along with Martin and Mills.

 

[NZTailender]

Finally something we can agree on.

The selectors should use the XI they are planning to use against Australia in both tests against Bangladesh, and i'm pretty sure they will do exactly that.

I'm not entirely sure what that lineup will be, but i'd suggest if Southee has a good One Day series (which is likely) he will get the nod for the tests along with Martin and Mills.

I think O'Brien is going to get a gig in the A tour, so his chances will probably rely on that. Though O'Brien has made the team before based simply on net bowling.

 

[Polo23]

I think O'Brien is going to get a gig in the A tour, so his chances will probably rely on that. Though O'Brien has made the team before based simply on net bowling.

Well, the last game of the A tour is on right now (starting just over an hour ago). I'd suggest O'Brien is in for either Arnel or Mason, probably more likely Mason since Arnel took that 4fa in the last game. I'm praying they don't drop Boult, he did incredibly well considering it was his FC debut in a A team match. Quality eft armers who can swing it are GOLD.

It sucks cricinfo doesnt have better coverage of this game, I am very interested to see how the future NZ hopefuls go.

 

[S.P. Fleming]

how about you two put this argument to rest, you are wasting you life arguing about the career of a young guy who is it so hard to judge how good he will be.

 

[NZTailender]

Umm, it pretty much is at rest. Now it's more of a discussion than an argument.