Who is second greatest odi batsman after viv?

[ankitj]

Fact that Kohli crossed fifty 9 times out of 11 in 2023 world cup is quite impressive too. I honestly only remember anything about 3 of those innings. I can however spend an entire evening talking you through each of Tendulkar's and his team mates' performances in 96.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Sachin is the best ever in ODI cricket, he batted in 4 different decades, and every major team has a story to share about the great man and his feats.

 

[capt_Luffy]

With lowest strike rate among indian batsman. Almost everyone scored at 100+ except Kohli (90+).

SR Hardly mattered in any of India's matches but Final, where the grave already dug.

 

[Thala_0710]

I did a rudimentary analysis on all wc campaigns with >= 400 runs and devised a metric using the approximate wts to:
35-45%: % of team runs
30-40%: Total runs scored
20-30%: % Better than team SR
Which led to the following top 40 campaigns. Now the metric doesn't include opposition weights and higher weights for knockouts but imo produces a fairly good result.
I also capped the SR points above a certain threshold because a high SR matters less as it goes very high compared to runs scored. (Otherwise ppl scoring 200 runs in the campaign at 150 SR would get a very high weight)

 

[debraj72]

View attachment 44587

I did a rudimentary analysis on all wc campaigns with >= 400 runs and devised a metric using the approximate wts to:
35-45%: % of team runs
30-40%: Total runs scored
20-30%: % Better than team SR
Which led to the following top 40 campaigns. Now the metric doesn't include opposition weights and higher weights for knockouts but imo produces a fairly good result.
I also capped the SR points above a certain threshold because a high SR matters less as it goes very high compared to runs scored. (Otherwise ppl scoring 200 runs in the campaign at 150 SR would get a very high weight)

No one from pre 1992 in top 10?you can lower the criteria of 400 runs,also i think kohli 2023 campaign will always be underrated when you consider the rest of the team sr factor,because of a quickfire opener like rohit.

 

[debraj72]

I think main weakness of Sachin's odi record is his not-so-good record outside asia in 1990s(barring few tournaments like 1992 tri series),also i am not so sure,but he was probably not that good against South Africa in 1990s

 

[Bolo.]

View attachment 44587

I did a rudimentary analysis on all wc campaigns with >= 400 runs and devised a metric using the approximate wts to:
35-45%: % of team runs
30-40%: Total runs scored
20-30%: % Better than team SR
Which led to the following top 40 campaigns. Now the metric doesn't include opposition weights and higher weights for knockouts but imo produces a fairly good result.
I also capped the SR points above a certain threshold because a high SR matters less as it goes very high compared to runs scored. (Otherwise ppl scoring 200 runs in the campaign at 150 SR would get a very high weight)

This is heavily influenced by batting position and team strength. Alistair Campell scores a higher proportion of team runs than Bevan. And he actually opened in less than 50% of games while averaging about 30.

 

[Thala_0710]

This is heavily influenced by batting position and team strength. Alistair Campell scores a higher proportion of team runs than Bevan. And he actually opened in less than 50% of games while averaging about 30.

Yeah but the ones who bat higher in the order also have a higher impact in ODIs imo. There is a reason most top batsman play in the top order in white ball cricket, its because the more balls you get the higher impact you can have and you want your best batsmen to play there. People debate Rohit vs Dhoni in ODIs but imo the impact Rohit has had since he has started to open makes him the better bat.
Now, as far as team strength goes, yes I could lower the weights for those metrics a bit but they also show how much support a guy has, and how relatively easy the batting conditions were. For example in Kohli's case, every top 5 bat was playing at a faster strike rate than him which was allowing Kohli to just accumulate runs. In most great campaigns, the best batsmen not only score a high % of the team's runs but also score it at a faster rate than the team, which requires a higher skill level, while Kohli was 11% slower, which is very high relatively. Hence, I don't rate the campaign as high as others do.

 

[sayon basak]

Yeah but the ones who bat higher in the order also have a higher impact in ODIs imo. There is a reason most top batsman play in the top order in white ball cricket, its because the more balls you get the higher impact you can have and you want your best batsmen to play there. People debate Rohit vs Dhoni in ODIs but imo the impact Rohit has had since he has started to open makes him the better bat.
Now, as far as team strength goes, yes I could lower the weights for those metrics a bit but they also show how much support a guy has. For example in Kohli's case, every top 5 bat was playing at a faster strike rate than him which was allowing Kohli to just accumulate runs. In most great campaigns, the best batsmen not only score a high % of the team's runs but also score it at a faster rate than the team, which requires a higher skill level, while Kohli was 11% slower, which is very high relatively. Hence, I don't rate the campaign as high as others do.

The S/R difference can be a very tricky stats, as it depends on the team strength; and doesn't really take into account how valuable were those runs for the team's cause.

 

[Thala_0710]

No one from pre 1992 in top 10?you can lower the criteria of 400 runs,also i think kohli 2023 campaign will always be underrated when you consider the rest of the team sr factor,because of a quickfire opener like rohit.

Yeah so the 400 run metric can be lowered for sure, but most of the early wcs had top scorers just playing 3-4 inns. The statistical noise there is very high and imo the above method doesn't translate well in such a low sample space.
I would probably need a different metric to compare those campaigns properly to the above ones

 

[Thala_0710]

The S/R difference can be a very tricky stats, as it depends on the team strength; and doesn't really take into account how valuable were those runs for the team's cause.

Yeah but so is just taking the amount of runs scored. Rohit for instance had been playing a certain way and decided (for the better imo) that India needs quick starts more in the pp, especially as scores get higher in odi cricket. He probably could have done what Kohli did too and go at a decent pace of 90s and get 3-4 hundreds too like he did in 2019. But the way he played imo was better for the team.
And the SR was crucial too for the team. The sf for instance, if Iyer doesn't make that quick hundred we lose the game. Rohit's quick runs were a very imp reason for India putting above par totals in the wc, which sometimes lost its true value because Bumrah and Shami bowled so well that the margin of victory was that big.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah but the ones who bat higher in the order also have a higher impact in ODIs imo. There is a reason most top batsman play in the top order in white ball cricket, its because the more balls you get the higher impact you can have and you want your best batsmen to play there. People debate Rohit vs Dhoni in ODIs but imo the impact Rohit has had since he has started to open makes him the better bat.
Now, as far as team strength goes, yes I could lower the weights for those metrics a bit but they also show how much support a guy has, and how relatively easy the batting conditions were. For example in Kohli's case, every top 5 bat was playing at a faster strike rate than him which was allowing Kohli to just accumulate runs. In most great campaigns, the best batsmen not only score a high % of the team's runs but also score it at a faster rate than the team, which requires a higher skill level, while Kohli was 11% slower, which is very high relatively. Hence, I don't rate the campaign as high as others do.

I think it's a problem if it rates Rohit in this campaign higher than Virat. SR is important, but having watched the games, barring the Final I don't think Kohli needed to bat faster in any other match (and still don't really blame him).

 

[Thala_0710]

I think it's a problem if it rates Rohit in this campaign higher than Virat. SR is important, but having watched the games, barring the Final I don't think Kohli needed to bat faster in any other match (and still don't really blame him).

He didn't need to because others were doing so. But I could say the same that Rohit didn't need to score more runs because others were doing so.
The SF for instance, we lose that match if Iyer doesn't play that fast. In the rest of the matches Bumrah and Shami were so brilliant that it didn't make any difference.
Even immediately after the wc I was of the opinion that Rohit had a better wc than Kohli did

 

[capt_Luffy]

He didn't need to because others were doing so. But I could say the same that Rohit didn't need to score more runs because others were doing so.
The SF for instance, we lose that match if Iyer doesn't play that fast. In the rest of the matches Bumrah and Shami were so brilliant that it didn't make any difference.

Yeah, but I think fundamentally the latter is much more important. Just think of the Final and how different it could had been had Rohit not tried to smash Maxwell for the 3rd.
Virat was absolutely brilliant in the SF too. Iyer needed that straight man to attack all out.

 

[Thala_0710]

Yeah, but I think fundamentally the latter is much more important. Just think of the Final and how different it could had been had Rohit not tried to smash Maxwell for the 3rd.
Virat was absolutely brilliant in the SF too. Iyer needed that straight man to attack all out.

Might be. But conversely if Rohit didn't attack in the beginning we probably don't even get to 240. Also, if Kohli and KL tried to play a bit faster we probably get more too.

 

[sayon basak]

I didn't realize Rohit made the top 10 but Kohli barely made the top 20.

Guess going by eye test alone is much better.

 

[subshakerz]

Fact that Kohli crossed fifty 9 times out of 11 in 2023 world cup is quite impressive too. I honestly only remember anything about 3 of those innings. I can however spend an entire evening talking you through each of Tendulkar's and his team mates' performances in 96.

Yeah you won me over with Tendulkar in 96. It truly was an epic performance and against top opposition.

 

[Thala_0710]

I didn't realize Rohit made the top 10 but Kohli barely made the top 20.

Guess going by eye test alone is much better.

Yeah I wouldn't have Kohli 2023 that low either considering his performances in the SF and against AUS in game 1, but I wouldn't have it as high as others do too though.

 

[sayon basak]

Yeah I wouldn't have Kohli 2023 that low either considering his performances in the SF and against AUS in game 1, but I wouldn't have it as high as others do too though.

I wouldn't go below top 5, and certainly better than Rohit.

 

[Thala_0710]

I wouldn't go below top 5, and certainly better than Rohit.

I would have him around top 10 but below Rohit's. Let's agree to disagree then.
(I put Shakib above Kohli, you should be agreeing with me)