Wasim Akram vs Dennis Lillee

[Qlder]

Asgiriya is never a spin bowlers pitch. For one and half days it swings.

Sri Lanka played two pacemen and Ranatunga who was fast medium when he was 19.

Well Lillee wasn't bowling during the one and half days it swings. Still got all of the Sri Lanka top 3 with the new ball though including 2 wkts in his first over late on day 2

 

[Van_Sri]

Asgiriya is never a spin bowlers pitch. For one and half days it swings.

Sri Lanka played two pacemen and Ranatunga who was fast medium when he was 19.

You yourself answered it one and half day Australia was batting first facing the swing of Sri Lankan bowlers. Look at the scorecard and comment

 

[Migara]

Well Lillee wasn't bowling during the one and half days it swings. Still got all of the Sri Lanka top 3 with the new ball though

This is SL's third test. When you are so called the premier bowler of the world, you are expected to annihilate minnows. Instead Tom Hogan and Bruce Yardly used the pace and bounce on offer to shine.

 

[Migara]

You yourself answered it one and half day Australia was batting first facing the swing of Sri Lankan bowlers. Look at the scorecard and comment

Exactly proves my point. Swing gone, Lillee gone missing.

Wasim Averages 24 at Asgiriya.

 

[Van_Sri]

Exactly proves my point. Swing gone, Lillee gone missing.

Wasim Averages 24 at Asgiriya.

Lillee did better performance than other fast bowlers in that Test. There ends the discussion. To compare with Wasim he should have played more in Sri Lanka. Sample Size is too small

 

[slcricfan1]

Not every pitch in sl is a dustbowl ffs lol. Asgirya is famously good for quicks

 

[Prince EWS]

#AsgiriyaSoSwingy

 

[Coronis]

Hard to draw much conclusion from the cricinfo match report for that match. One of the barest and shortest I’ve ever checked. All matter of fact, not a single mention of conditions. Looks to have been written by someone who checked the scorecard rather than watching the actual match.

SRI LANKA v AUSTRALIA 1982-83

After Chappell had won the toss, Wessels dominated an opening partnership which ended when Wood was caught at long-leg off Ranatunga's first ball

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[Qlder]

Not every pitch in sl is a dustbowl ffs lol. Kandy is famously good for quicks

Ok, but the pitch Lillee played his only Test on, Australia made 514/4 and SL 2 main pacers took 2 wkts @ 110.50

Lillee then came on and took 2 wkts in his first over

 

[slcricfan1]

Ok, but the pitch Lillee played his only Test on, Australia made 514/4 and SL 2 main pacers took 2 wkts @ 110.50

Lillee then came on and took 2 wkts in his first over

You got me wrong. Im not arguing against Lillee being bad.

 

[Van_Sri]

Exactly proves my point. Swing gone, Lillee gone missing.

Wasim Averages 24 at Asgiriya.

Murali took 12 Wickets @75.41 in Australia is he a bad bowler ? Definitely not

 

[Randomfan]

We definitely are!! It wasn't like Imran's Pakistan only had bad home umpires. It's way overblown really. WIndian umpires alone prevented Imran's Pak to win a Test series there, and Australian umpires had special love for Tendulkar and Lara as late as 99. And sure, Imran tampered with the ball, but he wasn't the only one, not even close to really.

Without getting into argument about which bowlers got more umpire support at home, we do know that all players played away without home umpire helping them. We can look at away record of all players in same time to see what they did away. Then we can keep biased home record separately and look into that with discussion about how much who benefitted by home umpires.

Pacers in equal footing without biased home umpires - Away record against non-minnows [ SL was minnow during IK's career ]





Home record of all pacers - Biased home umpiring may be a factor but can't be guaranteed.




This way we have two sets of data. One with biased umpiring helping bowlers and one without it. One is subject to arguments and other is mostly free from that because all visiting bowlers had to play against biased home umpires and they do have to play in different conditions.

That's why I feel rating Ik as high as 6th best pacers simply does not make any sense. Saying that 3 out of 6 best pacers in entire history played in the same 10 years seems unlikely given at IK was a clear 3rd in his generation and also has away avg of 26-27 with SR of 60. Yes, I am ware of all special argument made for IK. I just don't see 3 out of best 6 in history played at same time with that kind of record..

 

[Migara]

Murali took 12 Wickets @75.41 in Australia is he a bad bowler ? Definitely not

Lillee didn't have SLC and the president of SL calling him a chucker and no balling against him.

And if you want to consider Australia as a minnow, be my guest.

 

[subshakerz]

Pacers in equal footing without biased home umpires - Away record against non-minnows [ SL was minnow during IK's career ]

This silly argument again?

I already told, you need to discount for Imran having extra long career tailends as a teen and late 30s bat.

Then you have from 74 to 89:
48 wickets in 8 tests@25 in WI
47 wickets in 11 tests@23 in England
66 wickets in 13 tests@24 in Aus (including WSC)
28 wickets in 10 tests@28 in India
17 wickets in 4 tests@26 in NZ.

That is effectively Imran in his bowling prime. You can fault him in India but that away record compares well to any ATG pacer.

 

[Johan]

Exactly proves my point. Swing gone, Lillee gone missing.

Wasim Averages 24 at Asgiriya.

There wasn't much swing in Australia in 70s

 

[kyear2]

I give him credit for his home pitches while batting, despite averaging 33 vs Australia in them. That's why I rate him over Ponting, Dravid, Root, Waugh, Chappell and Sangakkara.

We definitely are!! It wasn't like Imran's Pakistan only had bad home umpires. It's way overblown really. WIndian umpires alone prevented Imran's Pak to win a Test series there, and Australian umpires had special love for Tendulkar and Lara as late as 99. And sure, Imran tampered with the ball, but he wasn't the only one, not even close to really.

That's why it helps to watch cricketers where possible. Punter was a better batsman than Kallis, just could take over a game like no one else and just dominated for those few years. That aside, Chappell way too low, he was behind only Viv from the mid 70's.

No, Imran didn't have the only bad umpires. New Zealand was notoriously horrible against us, but that seemed contained to one series . Pakistan and other teams had serous issues in India for a couple years, Marshall famously being brought to tears over a few decisions in his first tour.
From former WI players I spoke to, the main issue in Australia was that they allowed Lillee to do as he liked, overstepping, running down the pitch etc....
One single match is brought up for the WI, so that itself tells a story.

Pakistan however was in a different league. There's a reason why Javed isn't rated among the top tier bats of his era and his home / away split looks the way it does. Imran's as well, but for some reason though Javed's is more openly discussed, but I also understand the reverence with which Imran is held in Pakistan. But the ongoing meme about Javed was that he couldn't be given out LBW in Pakistan, and for the first half of his career at home, that was very much the case. Javed started playing home tests from 1976, the first time he was given out LBW was vs SL, and in 1985.

The first I read about it was when Sobers was targeted after his world record knock, with some horrible decisions to start the next tour. But it reached ridiculous levels from the mid 70's and early '80's. The Indian '82 tour was from everything I've read, the absolute worst. "It was basically 11 vs 13". And it wasn't just the lbw appeals, but the level of ball tampering that was allowed to go on unchecked, and it was for practically a decade. I rank Imran where I do because he was still a magnificent bowler, and as a cricketer, if his bowling is struggling because of the conditions, his batting can still be of service. But his home record was highly questionable, and his ball tampering and to boot, passing it down, was not great for the game.

 

[kyear2]

Because of slips.

Just love how they go from important to not important for you.

Guess they are important today.

 

[subshakerz]

The irony is that for all of @kyear2 incessant bitching about Imran the cheat, he will never tell you that Imran Khan was the first to actively lobby for neutral umpires.

The first series he really used them by his own choice was against the WI at home in 1986.

He ended up taking 18 wickets@11 including some monster reverse swing spells. In other words, his best series at home by average wasn't even with Pak umpires.

I guarantee you that @kyear2 in all his 'research' never came across this detail, or if he did chose to keep mum about it.

 

[subshakerz]

Just love how they go from important to not important for you.

Guess they are important today.

They are but I am consistent how I use them like you.

What would Wasim average with elite slips btw?

 

[kyear2]

He was, in much more suitable conditions and with better support fielders, to still end up with a lower overall average......

Wasim also had quite a few matches vs weaker teams to help said average.
And again, not every single pitch in Australia was favorable for bowling.

But yes, Lillee did have a much better cordon, one id the best ever actually.