Wasim Akram vs Dennis Lillee

[subshakerz]

Kallis had a high value if wickets. Imran often (not always) scored his hundreds in down hill conditions, 3rd or 4th hundreds in innings etc.

Or to save games.

 

[kyear2]

I swear, only someone totally twisted would take an objective good thing (neutral umpires) and try and spin this into a negative for Imran.

The fact is he introduced it at a time every team was complaining about home umpires and deserves credit.


Imran pushed the administrators to do after making it public.


Did you see all those lbws or are you just assuming they were all umpires cheats by reading the scoreboard because it's Imran?

Again utter pettiness. Zero credit for beyond worldclass figures and reverse swing spells against the best side in the world. All this nitpicking.

I asked a question which you expertly dodged.

Why did he push for them? Both things I said was true and in no way did it project it as a negative for Imran. He did the right thing.

Did I call anything cheats or did I state a fact?

What is undeniable is that the neutral umpires were instated after that game.

 

[sayon basak]

Kallis had a high value if wickets. Imran often (not always) scored his hundreds in down hill conditions, 3rd or 4th hundreds in innings etc.

He definitely took valuable wickets, but it definitely had something to do with the bowling attack also. As he bowled with the likes of Pollock, Steyn and Donald, the batter might have attempted to take on Kallis, resulting in the termination of some valuable partnerships.

 

[kyear2]

It's not just any game. That game would have meant Pakistan would have become the first team to beat the mighty WI in the 80s in their own home. Literally the most important game of the decade perhaps.

Of course you always want to ignore that Pakistan outplayed WI at home (yes with Marshall and Viv in two out of three tests) and deserved to win, which effectively would have been an even bigger crowning glory for Imran than even the WC.

Again, I love how you phrase things. It's always techinally.trie, but intellectually dishonest, and you know this, lol. The game they won was with Viv and Marshall both missing.

And how many games did Pakistan win by their decade of misconduct?

But it comes down to a couple of decisions vs one batsman in one game to equal all of that.

How you see those two things as equal is fully beyond me.

 

[kyear2]

Interesting because you earlier in the Cummins thread agreed with me about using the same 74 to 89 timeline, nor did you dispute the away numbers I presented.

Now you are backtracking or lying again it seems to curry favor with anyone who can agree with you.

As usual you miss and avoid the entire point.

It's not done for any other cricketer.

 

[kyear2]

You forgot to mention tier, bro

Defend him and you're still bitching, can't make you happy at all can I. You and Smali are a special kind of small and petty, lol.

 

[kyear2]

Or to save games.

Literally said not always.

There were two gave saving efforts.

The rest.....

 

[subshakerz]

I asked a question which you expertly dodged.

Why did he push for them? Both things I said was true and in no way did it project it as a negative for Imran. He did the right thing.

Have you ever brought neutral umpiring up on Imran when you demerited him for being a cheat until I brought it up?

And yes your framing was negative because you made it seem that Imran was doing it for a PR exercise whereas the real reason he did it for WI was because he wanted to beat teams and have the team take full credit rather than have it blamed on umpires.

 

[Bolo.]

No need for apologies.

But putting aside output, Kallis' value of wickets is pretty high. Would be great to see how Imran does there, but I'm afraid it would not be possible with the available data.

Imran played in an era of good bowlers. There would probably be a cap on how highly lower middle bats could score in this regard though unless spin is a major factor. The lowest averaging bowlers tend to bowl to the top and tail. Imran may have caught a fair propotion of the latter after wickets fell around him. But also probably faced a lot of overs from holding bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

He definitely took valuable wickets, but it definitely had something to do with the bowling attack also. As he bowled with the likes of Pollock, Steyn and Donald, the batter might have attempted to take on Kallis, resulting in the termination of some valuable partnerships.

Come on dude.

How about partnerships which he came in and broke?

This really can't be a serous argument.

Of all I cricket I've watched I can't think of a time when anyone tried to seriously take on Kallis.

I can refer to @Bolo. or @akilana

 

[subshakerz]

As usual you miss and avoid the entire point.

It's not done for any other cricketer.

Yet you agreed it was fine for Imran given his circumstances. And I do it for Tendulkar and his teen years. Wasim and his teen years.

Sobers can do it too but frankly he doesn't need it for his batting at least.

 

[subshakerz]

He definitely took valuable wickets, but it definitely had something to do with the bowling attack also. As he bowled with the likes of Pollock, Steyn and Donald, the batter might have attempted to take on Kallis, resulting in the termination of some valuable partnerships.

And pitches too. Let's not forget that Kallis was pretty useless in the SC and had the most pace friendly pitches at home to nerf him.

Imran with the bat was decent to good everywhere except WI.

 

[subshakerz]

Literally said not always.

There were two gave saving efforts.

The rest.....

So 1/3rd of his tons were extra special, the rest either draws or collective runmaking in wins, isn't that pretty much in proportion with other bats too in a slow scoring era of many draws?

 

[kyear2]

Have you ever brought neutral umpiring up on Imran when you demerited him for being a cheat until I brought it up?

And yes your framing was negative because you made it seem that Imran was doing it for a PR exercise whereas the real reason he did it for WI was because he wanted to beat teams and have the team take full credit rather than have it blamed on umpires.

And did it mid series?

Imran ball tampered and benefitted from home umpires. You can call it what you want, but it's true.

Why do you think it was being blamed on umpires?

The Indians were not amused after the 82 series and though they were playing against a stacked deck with bat and ball.

You prefer to always take the view that Imran was a saint and did all things for the greater good.

By the comment didn't want it blamed on umpiring, it in itself is an acknowledgment that it was approaching a national embarrassment. The second part, I'm equally sure of, they were whispers of teams being reluctant to visit.

Both were reasons that led to it being instituted. It doesn't reflect badly on anyone to suggest neutral umpires in that environment. You're just being overly sensitive as usual.

I know you take it a bit personally, which is why I don't get that you would think others would as well when you go after Lara, Kallis, Ambrose, Ashwin etc etc as well. You love to dish it out, but then gets ass hurt when it comes back to you.

 

[kyear2]

And pitches too. Let's not forget that Kallis was pretty useless in the SC and had the most pace friendly pitches at home to nerf him.

Imran with the bat was decent to good everywhere except WI.

So again, his home batting gets extra credit?

 

[kyear2]

So 1/3rd of his tons were extra special, the rest either draws or collective runmaking in wins, isn't that pretty much in proportion with other bats too in a slow scoring era of many draws?

And Kallis performed better in easier conditions, isn't that the norm for most bowlers?

What did Imran averaged vs India compared to SL as a bowler?

Imran contributed 44 runs a match Kallis took a lot of top order wickets and broke partnerships, while averaging almost 2 wickets a match.

Yes Kallis's bowling reduced as he gor older, so did Imran's.

There's not the difference between secondary skills as you want to believe.

Primary yes, Imran is slightly ahead.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran ball tampered and benefitted from home umpires. You can call it what you want, but it's true.

Why do you think it was being blamed on umpires?

Dude, Imran tampered. Hadlee tampered. Lillee tampered. Holding tampered. Even St. Maco tampered.

They all did it. Scratches, lozenges, face cream, seam lifting, the works.as far as regular match practices. You want to argue Imran did it more, whatever.

All teams had favorable home umpires. You want to argue Pak umpires were moreso, fine.

Imran out of them all at least admitted his own tampering and in his own career introduced neutral umpires. Singling him out as a sole cheat never made any sense.

 

[subshakerz]

And Kallis performed better in easier conditions, isn't that the norm for most bowlers?

What did Imran averaged vs India compared to SL as a bowler?

Kallis performing over an entire career in easier conditions is far more flattering to his record than just centuries or fifers.

Imran still had worldclass returns against India.

So again, his home batting gets extra credit?

Always said it's the best feature of Kallis' record despite averaging 33 against Aus.

 

[Bolo.]

Come on dude.

How about partnerships which he came in and broke?

This really can't be a serous argument.

Of all I cricket I've watched I can't think of a time when anyone tried to seriously take on Kallis.

I can refer to @Bolo. or @akilana

Not sure I can remember this being a regular thing for anyone other than filthy part timer types. Bats tend to go after the weakest links if they have a go at anyone.

 

[subshakerz]

Not sure I can remember this being a regular thing for anyone other than filthy part timer types. Bats tend to go after the weakest links if they have a go at anyone.

Lara did but then he was bashing others too.