Wasim Akram vs Dennis Lillee

[Qlder]

Does Imran and Kallis not have their own thread? Why is there pages of debating about them in the Lillee vs Akram thread?

 

[Johan]

Does Imran and Kallis not have their own thread? Why is there pages of debating about them in the Lillee vs Akram thread?

you must be the new guy

 

[Randomfan]

There isn't cherrypicking. I am using the entire period from 74 to 89 as his bowling prime.

Now please address the away numbers I presented. Don't dodge.

You asked to remove his teen years and also asked to remove his late 30s. I took out his teen years and also exlcuded 35 plus years.

Now you want to keep some years of his late years, it's fine.

Let's go with second cherrypicked period when IK was at his best. Remember other players don't get this luxury, but let's give it to IK.


Away against non-minnows during IK's peak from 74-89 - sorted by Avg





Same list sorted by SR




Literally 8 pacers are coming above IK in Avg and SR both. Not that I will rank 8 of them ahead of IK, but a claim for 6th best pacer in history becomes marginal and not a strong one with avg of 25-26 and SR 58 in his best period. This is when we are giving benefit to IK by picking a period when he did best and others are simply there without or without peak. We are not picking the peak for any others in this list.

Since home record seems to get tainted for many due to biased home unpire, we can look at away to judge how good players did. If IK's output gap was a bit narrower with Mashall and Hadlee then his case for higher spot would have been stronger. Gap is quite a big one here. Based on his absolute and him being so far behind the best bowlers of his generation, I think his case is not that strong for higher up in spots. Now if some one having watched him rates him high it's fine and if some one rates him lower it's fine too.

 

[kyear2]

Dude, Imran tampered. Hadlee tampered. Lillee tampered. Holding tampered. Even St. Maco tampered.

They all did it. Scratches, lozenges, face cream, seam lifting, the works.as far as regular match practices. You want to argue Imran did it more, whatever.

All teams had favorable home umpires. You want to argue Pak umpires were moreso, fine.

Imran out of them all at least admitted his own tampering and in his own career introduced neutral umpires. Singling him out as a sole cheat never made any sense.

What ever you want to tell yourself dude.

 

[akilana]

What ever you want to tell yourself dude.

that dude changes his tunes according to who he's arguing for. why are you even in long ass discussions?

 

[Randomfan]

I think they were used frequently in pak tbh, be it bottlecaps, or sandpapers, or just anything that gets the job done, away I think they didn't do it cuz they'd get caught easier.

This is one article which talks about balatant tampering where bloood was coming out of finger due to getting cut by bottle cap.

Is there articles for similar level of tampering in other places? If yes, can you share? I am aware of umpires favouring teams in decisions, but only trying to see this level of ball tampering.

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During the innings, Crowe dropped a delivery from Abdul Qadir at his feet and bent down to pick it up and lob it back to the bowler. "It was totally mutilated on one side with two or three deep scratches gouged out," he said. "I complained to the umpires but they did nothing."

"It bore no resemblance to a cricket ball," Crowe claimed.

After another resounding defeat at Lahore, several of the New Zealanders experimented in the nets with scoring one side of an old ball with bottle tops. "With that technique, even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," Pringle wrote

Pringle started scratching the ball with the bottle top. Pakistan crashed from 35 for 0 to 102 all out. Pringle finished with his Test-best figures of 7 for 52.

And as the game wore on, Pringle became deliberately obvious in an attempt to get a reaction, even gouging the ball as he talked to the umpire. Still nothing was said.

So eagerly was he vandalizing the ball that at one stage he cut himself on the jagged bottle top. Even the sight of a bowler with blood freely flowing from a sliced finger did not cause any disquiet as far as the officials were concerned. Pringle finished with 11 for 152 after taking 2 for 190 in the first two matches

As old as the hills

The thorny subject of ball tampering has stalked the game for many years, but it is only in the last couple of decades that it has become something a wider audience has been aware of. Arguably, it has been going on since cricket's earliest days, but invas

www.espncricinfo.com

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Pakistan's home domination went for a toss immediately after neutral umpires came. For 10 years period, W/L dropped from 6 to 1 despite no change in away W/L. That's not a proof but veyr very strange. It can't be explained by team declining or team being poor so suddenly because only home declined so much.

Gap between home and away being massive for some bowlers compared to others in same period. That's also not a proof but a second data point for that period.

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Pringle taking 11/152 after practicing a bit with bottle cap, huh. If other examples like this exist then please share. I mostly ignore home for that era due to this, but interested to read all instances.

 

[kyear2]

This is one article which talks about balatant tampering where bloood was coming out of finger due to getting cut by bottle cap.

Is there articles for similar level of tampering in other places? If yes, can you share? I am aware of umpires favouring teams in decisions, but only trying to see this level of ball tampering.

----------------------------------------------------


During the innings, Crowe dropped a delivery from Abdul Qadir at his feet and bent down to pick it up and lob it back to the bowler. "It was totally mutilated on one side with two or three deep scratches gouged out," he said. "I complained to the umpires but they did nothing."

"It bore no resemblance to a cricket ball," Crowe claimed.

After another resounding defeat at Lahore, several of the New Zealanders experimented in the nets with scoring one side of an old ball with bottle tops. "With that technique, even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," Pringle wrote

Pringle started scratching the ball with the bottle top. Pakistan crashed from 35 for 0 to 102 all out. Pringle finished with his Test-best figures of 7 for 52.

And as the game wore on, Pringle became deliberately obvious in an attempt to get a reaction, even gouging the ball as he talked to the umpire. Still nothing was said.

So eagerly was he vandalizing the ball that at one stage he cut himself on the jagged bottle top. Even the sight of a bowler with blood freely flowing from a sliced finger did not cause any disquiet as far as the officials were concerned. Pringle finished with 11 for 152 after taking 2 for 190 in the first two matches

As old as the hills

The thorny subject of ball tampering has stalked the game for many years, but it is only in the last couple of decades that it has become something a wider audience has been aware of. Arguably, it has been going on since cricket's earliest days, but invas

www.espncricinfo.com

------------------------------------------


Pakistan's home domination went for a toss immediately after neutral umpires came. For 10 years period, W/L dropped from 6 to 1 despite no change in away W/L. That's not a proof but veyr very strange. It can't be explained by team declining or team being poor so suddenly because only home declined so much.

Gap between home and away being massive for some bowlers compared to others in same period. That's also not a proof but a second data point for that period.

----------------------------------------


Pringle taking 11/152 after practicing a bit with bottle cap, huh. If other examples like this exist then please share. I mostly ignore home for that era due to this, but interested to read all instances.

There are countless stories and anecdotes, they are just ignored and replaced by deflection and equivocation. Oh, they did it as well. Though mind you, that only came about when players started coming out and saying that they were doing it, and it's because if Imran was doing it, it couldn't possibly be bad.

It was levels above what anyone else was doing, and especially at home it went unchecked.

 

[Coronis]

you must be the new guy

This place is a frickin hellscape.

 

[Johan]

This place is a frickin hellscape.

we'll give you weekly Imran vs X debates, and you'll eat it up

 

[Van_Sri]

Imran Khan Outside Pakistan - 2267 Runs @28.70 Runs Per Innings and 199 Wickets @25.76. Ian Botham Outside England and Pakistan - 2199 Runs @31.41 Runs Per Innings and 155 Wickets @29.43. Richard Hadlee Outside New Zealand and Pakistan - 1409 Runs @20.42 Runs Per Innings and 220 Wickets @20.68. Kapil Dev Outside India and Pakistan - 1890 Runs @24.87 Runs Per Innings and 171 Wickets @31.01. Imran was the 2nd Best Bowler and 2nd Best Batsman among the 4 All Rounders of his Generation.

 

[subshakerz]

why are you even in long ass discussions?

Because that's all he does

You asked to remove his teen years and also asked to remove his late 30s. I took out his teen years and also exlcuded 35 plus years.

Perhaps address the away breakdown I showed and tell me how IK underperformed.

Does Imran and Kallis not have their own thread? Why is there pages of debating about them in the Lillee vs Akram thread?

This is the fourth or fifth unrelated thread this week Kyear wants to debate this in.

It was levels above what anyone else was doing, and especially at home it went unchecked.

So others were doing good ball tampering and weren't cheats, but Imran was doing bad ball tampering and was a cheat.

 

[kyear2]

Because that's all he does


Perhaps address the away breakdown I showed and tell me how IK underperformed.


This is the fourth or fifth unrelated thread this week Kyear wants to debate this in.


So others were doing good ball tampering and weren't cheats, but Imran was doing bad ball tampering and was a cheat.

You keep responding, but it's my fault.

You're so full of **** dude.

 

[subshakerz]

You keep responding, but it's my fault.

You're so full of **** dude.

Yes because you initiate and bring it up even though nobody asked. And I've asked you to stop. If you care so much, create its own thread so you don't need to vomit your page long diatribes here.

 

[Van_Sri]

Imran Khan Outside Pakistan - 2267 Runs @28.70 Runs Per Innings and 199 Wickets @25.76. Ian Botham Outside England and Pakistan - 2199 Runs @31.41 Runs Per Innings and 155 Wickets @29.43. Richard Hadlee Outside New Zealand and Pakistan - 1409 Runs @20.42 Runs Per Innings and 220 Wickets @20.68. Kapil Dev Outside India and Pakistan - 1890 Runs @24.87 Runs Per Innings and 171 Wickets @31.01. Imran was the 2nd Best Bowler and 2nd Best Batsman among the 4 All Rounders of his Generation.

Dennis Lillee’s Average could have been same like Imran Khan if he played regularly in Sub-Continent and West Indies with Neutral Empires and I would have Imran or Hadlee in my all time XI over Dennis Lillee as they also can contribute with the

 

[Migara]

This is like Trump saying there were good people on both sides. False equivalency.

One match vs a decade of horrendous umpiring, but somehow it's seen as equivalent by a handful of you. It's honestly hilarious.

All of our batsmen and bowlers performed equally well home and away for that entire era.

That one match would have damaged image of a side more than matches for a decade. It is the worst cheated match in the history given the context of the game. It is like cheating in a world cup final.

 

[Coronis]

That one match would have damaged image of a side more than matches for a decade. It is the worst cheated match in the history given the context of the game. It is like cheating in a world cup final.

God its like Sandpapergate all over again!

 

[kyear2]

That one match would have damaged image of a side more than matches for a decade. It is the worst cheated match in the history given the context of the game. It is like cheating in a world cup final.

This honestly is the most absolute garbage I've ever read in the forum.

 

[akilana]

That one match would have damaged image of a side more than matches for a decade. It is the worst cheated match in the history given the context of the game. It is like cheating in a world cup final.

it taught Pakistanis umpires a lesson so it should be applauded.

 

[Qlder]

Just had another look at that "Lillee in Pakistan" series. Australia had 11 batsmen given lbw. Pakistan had one

 

[kyear2]

Just had another look at that "Lillee in Pakistan" series. Australia had 11 batsmen given lbw. Pakistan had one

Miandad was playing from '75, never had a lbw decision given against him till '85.

Even in his "prime" Imran averaged 5 less at home than away.

It was horrendous.

The '82 India series was a Cluster**** as well.