Wally Hammond vs Jacques Kallis

[subshakerz]

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That was not the demonstrative and quite uninformed statement that you made.

This is why it's impossible to have an discussion with you.

You come out and spew nonsense and instead of admitting you were undeniably wrong, you try to shift the parameters mid flight.
.the worst part is that you'll make the same ignorant statement again and pretend this conversation never occured

Please read my statement again.

I said you choose to ignore consensus when it's against you.

But I also said Pollock is rated by most as ahead. I never said unanimously. But ESPN ranking, Wisden ranking, Cricket SA, and several others all put him ahead.

 

[DrWolverine]

So who is the 3rd greatest spinner ever?

I don’t really care.
Just I like don’t care about who is 21st greatest batsman.

 

[Thala_0710]

Yeah was gonna say that, Bedi as well.

Bedi was a 4th inns specialist, when the pitches were at their worst. He's probably the greatest 4th inns bowler of all time, but his record in the first 3 inns is just par or a bit above. So, if someone wishes for a 4th inns destroyer Bedi has a good case imo.
Chandra on the other hand is the best Asian spinner in Sena behind Murali. But overall his record, is around Bedi level imo, a bit behind Ash and Kumble for me.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Bedi was a 4th inns specialist, when the pitches were at their worst. He's probably the greatest 4th inns bowler of all time, but his record in the first 3 inns is just par or a bit above. So, if someone wishes for a 4th inns destroyer Bedi has a good case imo.
Chandra on the other hand is the best Asian spinner in Sena behind Murali. But overall his record, is around Bedi level imo, a bit behind Ash and Kumble for me.

I think Chandra's SENA record is really Great. Until Bumrah came, he was India's biggest match winner away. I think he is on par with Derek

 

[Coronis]

Where do I?

I think there's only 3 ATG spinners. Behind those 3 it's anyone's call.

Not sure about Dickie Bird, he listed Warne and Gibbs in his all time XI.

Benaud was partial to leg spinners and more than a little biased against Murali. He also stated that his all time team, wasn't the best, but rather ones he would want to represent him.

Nothing wrong with Gooch's take. That's what he experienced.

Top 100 sounds ok to me, no issue there.

Imran was making a projection based on his guy. That what captains do

Bumble lives to be entertained, he lives to watch Qadir.

He would have also easily been the best leggie Marsh played against.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with the last proclamation. It's probably true.

So two points, most of those statements basically said he's the best spinner after Warne and Murali, quite a few people believe that.
A lot of Australians still believe Lillee is the greatest ever, some still on the forum as well.

The list I collected was to counter an incorrect statement that Pollock was universally rated higher than Richards. It was a statement based purely on peer review, and was shown to be incorrect.

And most importantly, I stated at the end, the list isn't to prove he was better than anyone, Pollock, Sunny, anyone.

It was was to show that he did and does get AT recognition as one of the greatest batsman ever.

And the thing with spinners is that there's no clear no. 4, Qadir could be as close as any?

Its interesting how the excuses come out for other player’s ratings.

Also really? You yourself honestly think Qadir is a good candidate for #4 spinner of all time?

 

[subshakerz]

Its interesting how the excuses come out for other player’s ratings.

Also really? You yourself honestly think Qadir is a good candidate for #4 spinner of all time?

He cares about player ratings with Barry, Imran (kinda), Wasim.

He doesn't care about player ratings with Marshall, Pollock, Hobbs, Barnes and now Qadir apparently.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

@Cricket Bliss you disagree?

I agree.
Slips have more importance in Test Cricket than any other fielding position. In limited overs saving runs is equally important with wickets. But in Tests you have to get wickets… the duty of slips is to take catches and not save runs, unless very rarely requires so.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Where do you rate Abdul Qadir?

Dickie Bird rated him as the greatest spinner he had ever seen.

Richie Benaud rated him as the 3rd gretest wrist spinner ever, only below Warne and O'Reilly.

Graham Gooch, who faced Qadir in the Lahore test where he took 9-56, said that Qadir was ever finer than Shane Warne.

Christopher Martin-Jenkins rated him in his top 100, as the 5th greatest leg spinner ever.

Imran Khan said that if Abdul Qadir had played in the modern era, he could have taken more wickets than Australia's Shane Warne.

David "Bumble" Lloyd said that Qadir was the third greatest spinner ever after Muralitharan and Warne.

Rodney Marsh included Abdul Qadir in his all-time greatest playing XI, stating, "He is the best leggie I've played against."

Kamran Abbasi argued for Qadir's superiority over Shane Warne.

Bill O’Reilly sat with binoculars at Sydney Cricket Ground in 1984 to watch Qadir, only to conclude with, ‘I can’t pick him. I haven’t a clue. What a great bowler.’

Scyld Berry, the incoming editor of Wisden Almanack: "It is impossible to believe that wrist-spin has ever been bowled better than Qadir did in his home city of Lahore in 1987-88, when he took 9 for 56 against England."

Only Rodney Marsh opinion seems fine. In his era Qadir might be the best.

 

[subshakerz]

I agree.
Slips have more importance in Test Cricket than any other fielding position.

Debatable. Other fielding positions have both catches as well as saving runs as a consideration.

 

[subshakerz]

Only Rodney Marsh opinion seems fine. In his era Qadir might be the best.

Brearely also.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Debatable. Other fielding positions have both catches as well as saving runs as a consideration.

definitely others have catches. But most chances are with the keepers and slips.
Dravid, Jayawardene, Kallis are examples why they have these much catches.

Taking Catches have more emphasis than saving runs generally.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

All round fielders are better than slip fielders as they’re position is not confined to an area. But slips have more emphasis than any other position because most catches are there barring wicket keeper.

 

[Coronis]

Only Rodney Marsh opinion seems fine. In his era Qadir might be the best.

Don’t think Marsh played many other leggies

 

[subshakerz]

definitely others have catches. But most chances are with the keepers and slips.
Dravid, Jayawardene, Kallis are examples why they have these much catches.

Taking Catches have more emphasis than saving runs generally.

Sure slips have slightly more chances but we can't ignore runs entirely.

Having a strong cover/gully gives a lot of confidence and builds pressure for the bowler.

 

[Johan]

Bill O Reilly was a great spinner.
He was perhaps the best of his time.
But I can’t rank him as third best ever.

what? there isn't even an argument on O Reilly being the third best. Look beyond the number of games, he played for more than 10 years.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Its interesting how the excuses come out for other player’s ratings.

Also really? You yourself honestly think Qadir is a good candidate for #4 spinner of all time?

I don't know what's worse, the mental gymnastics or having no problem with Qadir at #4......

 

[Johan]

I am not going to deny the greatness of legends like Barnes, Hammond, Hobbs, Sutcliffe etc. But yeah I am not comfortable comparing them to modern day legends.

are you comfortable comparing Sunil Gavaskar to actual modern time greats like Joe Root and Steve Smith?

 

[sayon basak]

I don't know what's worse, the mental gymnastics or having no problem with Qadir at #4......

Having problem with Grum at #4 is a decent shout as well.

 

[Johan]

Laker is #4 for me.

 

[subshakerz]

are you comfortable comparing Sunil Gavaskar to actual modern time greats like Joe Root and Steve Smith?

Not this again.