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Wally Hammond vs Jacques Kallis

Wally Hammond vs Jacques Kallis

  • Total voters
    22
The Sean

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Cricket Bliss said:
Who would you all pick as the wicket keeper in your third XI considering Gilchrist and Knott are already picked.
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This is a question I can never decide on my own answer to. I change my mind and talk myself into and out of the case for different players constantly.
 
The Sean

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
I'm sure Sanga and De Villiers would both do a good job. I can just never get on board with a) wasting Sanga behind the stumps and giving up all those extra runs with the bat, and b) picking ABDV to do something in an all-time context that he did so relatively rarely in his actual career.
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
Coronis said:
I will say this. I think we nitpick too much here due to constant comparisons. And I think generally the gaps between the top batsmen and bowlers are far smaller than anyone would think from reading posts here.

From that POV, dropping say, Tendulkar for Hammond or even Kallis, or Marshall for Imran… doesn’t sound so crazy imo.
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I've got Sachin a fair way ahead of the modern guys based on how long he played for, but him aside, a bunch of modern bats are close to each other.

I'm not too sure how to rank Hammond. He might be ahead of all the other modern bats and a fair bit better than Kallis. If he is squeezed into the already small space between Kallis and [insert the name of a modern bat better than Kallis] they are very close as bats.

Clearly not the case with bowling. Kallis has more than 3x the wickets, nearly double the WPM and a 5 point average gap, which is huge for bowlers. The bowling average for games both of them played in was 32.x. Kallis was average by average, and Hammond was poor.
 
kyear2

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
subshakerz said:
Yeah. Plus Cricket SA rated him their Cricketer of the Century and most major rankings have him ahead.

But Kyear chooses to ignore consensus when it's against him.
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Ok, this is at least the 2nd time that I'm doing this.

But you continue to be deliberately dishonest, no surprises I guess, and make up facts.

I know you'll just ignore this and pretend none of it exists, but I persist.

There was never a consensus that Pollock was a better batsman than Barry.

First let me start off with the number of people who either rank him the best batsman or best opener they've ever seen.

Bradman, Thompson, Lillee

Gooch, Bob Taylor, Dicky Bird, McKenzie, Pollock, Procter

We can next go to some lists by the following pundits, writers, historians or former players... For funsies I'll list Barry, Polly and Sunny for reference. Some obviously carry more weight than others.

Christopher Martin Jenkins
Richards - 28 ; Pollock - 37 ; Gavaskar 26

David Gower
Richards - 15 ; Pollock - 25 ; Gavaskar - 26

Woodcock
Richards - 15 ; Pollock - 30 ; Gavaskar - 23

TMS
Richards - 15 ; Pollock - 36 ; Gavaskar - 12

This one means less, but.

Broken Dreams
Richards - 19 ; Pollock - 22 ; Gavaskar - 28

I can also present cricketers who name Richards in their AT XI's and the remainder of the batting lineups

Bob Willis
Hobbs | Richards | Bradman | Richards | Kallis | Sangakkara| Sobers

John Snow
Richards | Gavaskar | Bradman | Richards | Pollock | Sobers | Knott

Tony Grieg
Hutton | Richards | Bradman | Pollock | Richards | Sobers | Knott

Barry also made the 2nd AT teams for Cricinfo and Martin Crowe, Pollock makes neither.

The Bleacher report and The Roar also selected XI's to take on Wisden's AT XI, Barry made both.

Now I'm not saying that all this proves Barry is better than Pollock or even Sunny. But it does....

Prove that the stance there's a consensus that Pollock is ahead of him is an idea purely constructed in your head.

And that ...

Barry very much belongs in the AT XI conversation. And the notion that he doesn't is at the very least, flawed.

Now I know how you are, and I don't expect you to stop slagging off on him, but I do expect you to stop the lie that Pollock is by consensus better than he is. It is in fact closer to the other way round.
 
kyear2

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Cricket Bliss said:
I also wouldn’t take Imran in my all time XI
I’ll already have 6 batsmen who are in top 10 batsmen of all time + Gilchrist…the best available at that role… my focus would be in choosing 3 best fast bowlers and the best spinner… So would definitely take Hadlee who is better than Imran…wouldn’t swap Hadlee and take Imran just because I get a better No. 8 batsman.
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Cricket Bliss said:
That seems fine. But I would go with Ambrose, Steyn and Lillee… I wouldn’t give any importance to his batting as I have the next 6 best bats and Knott. Although I wouldn’t mind using Imran.

Edit : Im not about the reputation of Barnes were to include him.
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That's literally my argument as well, no malice, but, and this is an argument I've been consistent about for over a decade. Why when you have the best batsmen ever, would one select your bowling attack based on batting.

I also know that I'm only one of 3 persons on the forum to believe this, but the slip cordon should be a much bigger focus, because the better the bowlers are, especially the bowlers that you've chosen, the more the cordon would be engaged, and in such competitions one cannot afford to let chances to to waste.

Your thoughts?
 
kyear2

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Cricket Bliss said:
Ive edited. Im not sure were to place Barnes. In first or second
I have
Hadlee, Marshall and McGrath
Ambrose, Lillee, Steyn/Barnes

Not sure whether Barnes will replace anyone in the first XI
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I personally don't go back that far to include Barnes, but stylistically I would imagine he would have been closer to McGrath?

But honestly no one knows for sure.
 
kyear2

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Cricket Bliss said:
Kallis top 20 at best wouldn’t feels correct. I have him comfortably at 15-17…Worst at 20 and couldn’t go below.. and at his best, if a bad day for Ponting will have him at 14.
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You have to understand that basically he idolizes Imran, so he rates him higher than most, and to justify said rankings he ranks Kallis, Ambrose and Steyn lower than most.

So yes, he under rated Kallis as a batsman and a bowler, he generally just ignores the catching.
 
sayon basak

sayon basak

Cricketer Of The Year
kyear2 said:
Ok, this is at least the 2nd time that I'm doing this.

But you continue to be deliberately dishonest, no surprises I guess, and make up facts.

I know you'll just ignore this and pretend none of it exists, but I persist.

There was never a consensus that Pollock was a better batsman than Barry.

First let me start off with the number of people who either rank him the best batsman or best opener they've ever seen.

Bradman, Thompson, Lillee

Gooch, Bob Taylor, Dicky Bird, McKenzie, Pollock, Procter

We can next go to some lists by the following pundits, writers, historians or former players... For funsies I'll list Barry, Polly and Sunny for reference. Some obviously carry more weight than others.

Christopher Martin Jenkins
Richards - 28 ; Pollock - 37 ; Gavaskar 26

David Gower
Richards - 15 ; Pollock - 25 ; Gavaskar - 26

Woodcock
Richards - 15 ; Pollock - 30 ; Gavaskar - 23

TMS
Richards - 15 ; Pollock - 36 ; Gavaskar - 12

This one means less, but.

Broken Dreams
Richards - 19 ; Pollock - 22 ; Gavaskar - 28

I can also present cricketers who name Richards in their AT XI's and the remainder of the batting lineups

Bob Willis
Hobbs | Richards | Bradman | Richards | Kallis | Sangakkara| Sobers

John Snow
Richards | Gavaskar | Bradman | Richards | Pollock | Sobers | Knott

Tony Grieg
Hutton | Richards | Bradman | Pollock | Richards | Sobers | Knott

Barry also made the 2nd AT teams for Cricinfo and Martin Crowe, Pollock makes neither.

The Bleacher report and The Roar also selected XI's to take on Wisden's AT XI, Barry made both.

Now I'm not saying that all this proves Barry is better than Pollock or even Sunny. But it does....

Prove that the stance there's a consensus that Pollock is ahead of him is an idea purely constructed in your head.

And that ...

Barry very much belongs in the AT XI conversation. And the notion that he doesn't is at the very least, flawed.

Now I know how you are, and I don't expect you to stop slagging off on him, but I do expect you to stop the lie that Pollock is by consensus better than he is. It is in fact closer to the other way round.
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Where do you rate Abdul Qadir?

Dickie Bird rated him as the greatest spinner he had ever seen.

Richie Benaud rated him as the 3rd gretest wrist spinner ever, only below Warne and O'Reilly.

Graham Gooch, who faced Qadir in the Lahore test where he took 9-56, said that Qadir was ever finer than Shane Warne.

Christopher Martin-Jenkins rated him in his top 100, as the 5th greatest leg spinner ever.

Imran Khan said that if Abdul Qadir had played in the modern era, he could have taken more wickets than Australia's Shane Warne.

David "Bumble" Lloyd said that Qadir was the third greatest spinner ever after Muralitharan and Warne.

Rodney Marsh included Abdul Qadir in his all-time greatest playing XI, stating, "He is the best leggie I've played against."

Kamran Abbasi argued for Qadir's superiority over Shane Warne.

Bill O’Reilly sat with binoculars at Sydney Cricket Ground in 1984 to watch Qadir, only to conclude with, ‘I can’t pick him. I haven’t a clue. What a great bowler.’

Scyld Berry, the incoming editor of Wisden Almanack: "It is impossible to believe that wrist-spin has ever been bowled better than Qadir did in his home city of Lahore in 1987-88, when he took 9 for 56 against England."
 
kyear2

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Cricket Bliss said:
Who would you all pick as the wicket keeper in your third XI considering Gilchrist and Knott are already picked.
Click to expand...
That's an excellent question.

Depends what you're looking for.

Can go for Evans for pure keeping brilliance, Walcott or Sanga for good keeping and above average batting, Johnny Waite from SA, Healy etc etc. once they're at least world class with the gloves, it's all good.
 
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